Freedom

[xorbie]

I hear a lot of talk about it, particularly as it relates to AC/communism, but there isn't really much of a discussion about freedom itself. I don't want to set up any straw men, so I'd like to hear some of the main proponents of AC give a defintion.

[ShakeZula06]

Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same.

[xorbie]

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Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same.

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a) Define property (and what if you don't have it)?

b) What if you and someone else have competing desires: only one of you can do what you want?

[ShakeZula06]

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Freedom in it's purest form to me would mean the freedom to do whatever you want with your property as long as you don't infringe on anyone elses rights to the same.

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a) Define property (and what if you don't have it)?


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You aquired it through voluntary transactions.
edit: Also, your body and mind count as property, so you can't really not have property.
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b) What if you and someone else have competing desires: only one of you can do what you want?

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Not sure what you're asking, example?

[xorbie]

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You aquired it through voluntary transactions.

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So is my body my own property? edit: I see you answered this.

How about something I steal and then give to my kids... is that their property?

What is a definition of "voluntary"? I assume you mean something like "free from coersion", but I think that this is a much harder thing to define and get a handle on than people give it credit for. Is lying to you about something's value coersion? Is misleading you coersion? Is the threat of emotional or psychological harm (as opposed to physical harm) enough to consider something coersion?

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Not sure what you're asking, example?

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Can you honestly not conceive of a situation in which two people have mutually exclusive desires? Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight. Or perhaps there is a shortage of some natural resource that we both need to complete some project, and one of us will have to go without.

[hmkpoker]

I really, really dislike the word "freedom." I'd actually like for people to just stop using it altogether. It has a range of definitions that are so wide and contradictory that ultimately all it does is act as a euphemism for whatever social norms the speaker is advocating.

Total freedom is not possible. No social system can exist that allows anyone to do anything and have everything with no repurcussions.

Some popular uses of freedom include:

- Capitalistic property rights ("negative" freedom)

- State-sponsored welfare ("positive" freedom)

- The American status quo (I can only guess that this is what Bush means when he talks about "defending freedom")

What ultimately happens is that people abuse the word (since you can win more people over with euphemistic rhetoric than actual logic, hence why ACists prefer to use terms like "liberty" and "freedom" to more specific terms like "capitalism" and "natural selection"), and then their opponents decry their claims by claiming the ACists' system to be insufficient for providing freedom by redefining the word. "How will there be freedom for the poor in AC land? Working all day long to struggle to pay high rent and health insurance and starving to death if they can't hack it? Boy, that doesn't sound like freedom to me!"

[xorbie]

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Total freedom is not possible. No social system can exist that allows anyone to do anything and have everything with no repurcussions.


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I certainly wouldn't define freedom as being able to do and have whatever you like with no repercussion, but I agree that no social system is likely to allow total freedom for all.

[ShakeZula06]

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How about something I steal and then give to my kids... is that their property?

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No. Let's say person X steals Item A from person Y, and gives/sells it to person Z. Depending on the ease and efficiecy, I can see two options (a) person X reimburses person Y or (b) person Z loses item A and it's given back to person Y.
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Can you honestly not conceive of a situation in which two people have mutually exclusive desires?

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Sure, but I don't see a situation where these mutually exclusive desires isn't solved by property rights and the defintion of freedom I gave.
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Say you want to grow plants but I have a tree that blocks out the sunlight.

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Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property.
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Or perhaps there is a shortage of some natural resource that we both need to complete some project, and one of us will have to go without.

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It's up to whoever owns the natural resource or the rights to them.

[xorbie]

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No. Let's say person X steals Item A from person Y, and gives/sells it to person Z. Depending on the ease and efficiecy, I can see two options (a) person X reimburses person Y or (b) person Z loses item A and it's given back to person Y.

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This is where you start having problems. Is there some time after which this is no longer the case? Or must everything be reimbursed at some point?

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Well I'd see your tree as violating my property and my freedom to grow plants on my own property. You don't have a right to trees that hinder my property.

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Your plants smell bad to me. Are you allowed to grow them?

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It's up to whoever owns the natural resource or the rights to them.

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Nobody owns them for now.

[Poofler]

I hate the word also. It is defined differently by everyone who uses it. Your life is always in part determined by the decisions of others, total freedom is impossible. The AC distinction with "freedom" is that you are not compelled to do anything, but what some might consider a lack of "freedom" is that you are compelled to not do certain things.