Blind war, small PP OOP against a LAG

[Grisgra]

4h 30/60.

Some context that may or may not be useful: After 2-3 days of playing like a major lagtard I took a day off, but am now back to the tables. The 3 guys at the table are all very laggy and definitely push crappy hands too far, love to bluff, etc. (kinda like how I've been playing). In other words, because I'm a regular, they probably have notes on me as one of their own.

I've resolved that at this table, it makes sense to calm the [censored] down, play tight, wait for some good hands, and start punishing/trapping instead of getting into bluff wars. (Though a couple of sessions ago I pulled off an awesome turn cap, river-cap bluff where my opponent folded to the last bet on the river, I had a busted flush draw. So sweet! I *knew* the little bastard read me for having nothing . . . )

But anyway:

Folded to me, I raise in the SB with 33. Bluffy McVillain calls.

Flop is 667 rainbow. I bet, he raises. He could do this with a 7, an ace, a draw, complete air, or maybe even a '6'.

Options:

1)3bet, lead (any) turn.
2)Call, checkraise a non 8/9/A turn, otherwise call down.
3)Call, donk the turn (this could induce a value-bluff-raise on his part as lagtards hate being donked into).
4)Check/call down.

If he has air or a draw, villain will probably bluff the river a high percentage of the time unimproved unless he has an ace.

I didn't ponder it too deeply when the '9' hit on the turn, and I resorted to check/call mode, but I think I'd lean towards #2. This guy is super-bluffy, though, and there's a small chance he'd 3bet the turn as a bluff.

Against many I'd 3-bet the flop and lead, and that's probably the right line, but even if this guy is on a draw he'll take a free card, like, never. And I doubt he has an ace, or else he'd probably have repopped me preflop.

Opins?

PS -- Any line which includes "check/fold" or "bet/fold" in it I think needs to move to the bottom of the pile. Unless the turn and river are a 8 and then a 5, or my pair gets counterfeited.

[MarkD]

If you 3-bet the flop, and lead the turn (2 or Q), how do you respond when villian raises?

[Trix]

If he is raising any gutshot, pair+ or ace, then you can´t fold. I dont think 3betting makes that much sense against someone who is willing to spew alot hu as it isn´t going to get him to fold the hands you want him to fold on the turn anyway.

If the turn is an 8-T I probably just check-fold. Otherwise check-call and probably check-call again on the river.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
If you 3-bet the flop, and lead the turn (2 or Q), how do you respond when villian raises?

[/ QUOTE ]

My reflex because I know how bluffy he is is to call down, which I think is wrong. I think that if it were a '2' I'd call down, which may be marginally wrong, and if it were a 'Q' I might call down, I might fold -- I'm 90% sure folding is the correct play.

My problem with 3-betting and leading the turn, and folding (if I fold), I've invested one small bet less than c/c'ing the whole way, and allowed him to possibly bluff me out. Also, if he has nothing but air, I've stopped inducing stupid bluffs.

[MarkD]

[ QUOTE ]
My problem with 3-betting and leading the turn, and folding (if I fold), I've invested one small bet less than c/c'ing the whole way, and allowed him to possibly bluff me out. Also, if he has nothing but air, I've stopped inducing stupid bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I have pretty much removed that line from my game, but you play better than me so I wanted to get some insight as to how you would apply it as your original post lead me to believe you may be in favor of that line in this spot.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
My problem with 3-betting and leading the turn, and folding (if I fold), I've invested one small bet less than c/c'ing the whole way, and allowed him to possibly bluff me out. Also, if he has nothing but air, I've stopped inducing stupid bluffs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is why I have pretty much removed that line from my game, but you play better than me so I wanted to get some insight as to how you would apply it as your original post lead me to believe you may be in favor of that line in this spot.

[/ QUOTE ]

There are a lot of players that will throw in a token flop raise here with overs or whatever, check the turn, and fold the river UI or maybe call with a weak ace if they just called in the BB with it. Or they might raise the flop, bet the turn UI, but then give up on the river reading me for a weak ace and figuring I'll call again.

Against those I might keep up the aggression, knowing that I can be counterfeited at any time, and want to get them out on the turn if possible, as they'll probably have 10 outs to beat me on the river.

Against laggier opponents that might read my flop 3bet as posturing, and who are much more likely to bet the river unimproved or cap the flop with their overs and gutshot (or 7, or 6, or god knows what else) I prefer a different get-to-showdown line.

Given that my opponents lately have been of the laggier variety, I don't do the flop 3bet/lead line that often, actually, as it's sooo easy to induce bluffs with these guys.

[SteveL91]

What about 3-betting the flop then c/c the turn/river if you've decided to get to showdown?

It has the advantages of getting in that third bet on the flop while you likely have the best hand, while avoiding more than 2BBs going in between the turn and river. It might also help setup future plays against similar guys (particularly if this hand gets to showdown) that'll allow you to 3bet the flop then C/R the turn.

[Grisgra]

[ QUOTE ]
What about 3-betting the flop then c/c the turn/river if you've decided to get to showdown?

It has the advantages of getting in that third bet on the flop while you likely have the best hand, while avoiding more than 2BBs going in between the turn and river. It might also help setup future plays against similar guys (particularly if this hand gets to showdown) that'll allow you to 3bet the flop then C/R the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is the worst of all possible worlds; they get to potentially see the river for free without any money going in on the turn, and the odd flop 3-bet, turn check may make even the most laggiest lag's eyebrows go up, making it much more unlikely he'll bet the turn with air.

It's odd enough to give a shot in some situation, though -- I think it might be more +EV in a situation where I had nothing but air and don't prefer a river check/call (possibly inducing a bluff) to a river bet.

Though if I was on a pure bluff I'd be more likely to 3bet the flop, lead the turn and river and pray he didn't play back at me.

[wackjob]

a little off your topic, but do you really think there is something to be gained playing this hand versus this opponent when your villain has position on you? I think at best you are trying to squeeze a tiny profit from a really tough spot. perhaps i'm playing too many tables or my game is not up to par, but i'd just as soon fold preflop than take 33 or 22 up against a nasty villain who has position.

[sweetjazz]

Unless the opponent is very unreasonable, I think you should check/fold the turn when it comes a 9. You're probably way behind, and if not your opponent has at least 12 outs to beat you.

If he really 3 barrels air regularly, then I guess you have to just call down and pray, but things are looking bleak.