shorthanded vs full ring

[stoxtrader]

lots of authors have written about opening standards shorthanded, and whether it is correct to play assuming that you are at a full table with all folds to you. In other words if you are playing 5 handed, just assume that you are at a 10 handed table and there have been 5 folds.

Gary carson says this is a good start, but if I remember correctly, he goes on to say that you then should loosen up a bit because you pay the blinds more often. This I disagree with but wanted to see what others thought. I also question my thoguhts on this because it is my experience that higher limit players DO loosen up 4 handed vs 10 handed and folded to them in the cutoff. This is simply what it feels like to me, that they loosen up 4 handed in the CO vs 10 handed in the CO with everyone folding to you, but I do not have data to back it up, or rather I have the data but have not systematically analyzed it.

bunching effect is possibly applicable here, but to what extent?

So how many of you have a set opening range from each position in relation to the button and does that range change based on the number of people at the table?

[TheWorstPlayer]

Another point to consider here, I think, is that due to the shorthanded nature of the game, postflop play changes which will impact preflop play. I haven't seen much talked about along these lines, but I think it's probably pretty important. I'm sure everyone has experienced how postflop play changes dramatically between 3 handed and 10 handed play when folded to on the button due to the more dramatic impact of table dynamics brought about by the constant confrontations in the shorthanded game.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

People do loosen up slightly, which means that you should loosen up slightly in the blinds but tighten up slightly in position. On a similar note, there are some players who are weak in blind defense/stealing who can get away with this in a 9- or 10-handed game, but won't usually venture into the shorthanded waters.

[Hobbs.]

while my experience could be a function of the limits I play (5/10-20/40) I generally have fairly set opening standards when playing at 6max tables. That being said, I will often open light in the same position at a full table mainly because full ring players usually play worse around the blinds and thus the fringe hands become more profitable.

[Kyle]

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People do loosen up slightly, which means that you should loosen up slightly in the blinds but tighten up slightly in position.

[/ QUOTE ]

Nate, I assume you are meaning your opening standards correct? Let's say it four handed should you not loosen your 3 betting standards from button if CO is opening more frequently?

Intuitively it seems as though on average three or four handed the blinds hands will be weaker than ten handed so if the blinds defend the same amount could we not profitably loosen our opening standards?

Since we both the opener and the blind have relatively weaker hands on average would in a sense our positional advantage be greater?

Now I have no idea how to show this mathematically so it seems as though loosening our standards would be a good idea but as the OP poster pointed out by how much if any is the real question.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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[ QUOTE ]
People do loosen up slightly, which means that you should loosen up slightly in the blinds but tighten up slightly in position.

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Nate, I assume you are meaning your opening standards correct? Let's say it four handed should you not loosen your 3 betting standards from button if CO is opening more frequently?

[/ QUOTE ]

What I should have said is that you should open up slightly against a raise, but open-raise less yourself.

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Intuitively it seems as though on average three or four handed the blinds hands will be weaker than ten handed so if the blinds defend the same amount could we not profitably loosen our opening standards?

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Although both effects are minor, I think the blinds tending to defend more often should tend to outweigh the bunching effect.

Another thing to consider is that your table image is a LOT more important short-handed, even in an online game. In a slightly loose 10-handed game it might only be folded to you on the Button once every five orbits, so you can get away with stealing light two or three times in a row before your opponent catches on. 5-handed you might have the opportunity to steal once every other orbit, so your opponent will be much quicker to adjust.

[pokerhooker]

How are the blinds hands any weaker because it's shorthanded? They are still random, in my opinion, unless you really subscribe to bunching theory.

As for loosening up, I agree that most players loosen up their open raises, so against those opponents, I'll loosen up 3-betting and defending standards.

However, regardless of how many hands were dealt, the relative strength of your hand is the same in each position... in other words, the same number of people act behind you.

[Kyle]

I went back into PT and looked at some numbers and here is what I came up with

Here are my stats on the year. 150K sample

3 handed

VPIP button 44.69 PFR 44.65

4 handed

VPIP OTB 32.70 PFR 32.29

5 handed

VPIP OTB 27.17 PFR 26.47

6 handed

VPIP button 23 PFR 21.79

9-10 Handed

VPIP button 19.29 PFR 17.68

Note: sample is skewed towards short handed play so the accuracy of my 9-10 handed numbers is questionable due to small sample size.

Are my opening standards any different on the button 3 handed any different then when it is folded to me OTB 10 handed? Nope, not at all. However at first glance it would appear that way.

But this "loosening up" is naturally occuring due to changing game conditions. 3 handed it is always folded to me OTB whereas 6 or 10 handed there might be a limpers and raises in front of my so my range will be "tighter" so to speak.

Also I think it is interesting that the largest jump in VPIP occurs from 3 to 4 handed. Anyone have any comments on this?

[Glenn]

The difference is that shorthanded you play more hands postflop against each particular opponent. Therefore, you have a better read on each person in each situation (and they have a better read on you), and the nature of postflop play is quite different.

[geormiet]

A player who chooses a 6 max table is more lag than a full player. If you took the same players from your laggy 6max table and put them in the 4 late position spots at a full table I'd imagine they'd have the same opening standards (when folded to them).