Case in Point...

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue"> 1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well. </font>

I can't believe what I've been reading here from several posters, not just this, so no offense. I feel like I'm in a twilight zone. With all due respect...

What do you MEAN you don't have an opinion on this?!! You don't have an opinion on whether or not women should be oppressed by men?!?!?!?! Do you honestly think that it's ok for men to OWN the women in their families?!?!?!?!! That a woman is the property of her family or husband?

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Well, I have an opinion sure. I mean, I am nor going to express that opinion here because it is moot. We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. At least I am not. So, I am not going to give my opinion because I am too lazy to do anything about it – e.g. write a letter to some Muslim cleric asking for clarification if this is what Islam says or is it a governmental thing. Or organize some protest in front of the Saudi Embassy in D. C.

Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws.

I see a fine line too even for our government. Ok for George to try to free this woman, but not to free all the people in Iraq? (Btw, I was against the war from the git go – so don’t get me wrong.)

[borisp]

Has anyone here actually read the Koran? I hereby offer the "Koran challenge": try to open it five times in a row, each time to a random page, without finding a passage that encourages murdering infidels, or opressing women, etc.

I think you will be astonished at the results.

The most relevant point towards the OP's argument, I think, is that the foundational text upon which the religion of Islam is based is completely and thoroughly flawed. It is a text that is ideal for gathering a mob to wage war against their neighbor, and nothing more.

If one is aiming to attack modern religions for their irrationality, then one needs to appeal to their foundational texts. No more and no less will point out their absurdity.

[DougShrapnel]

If she had followed the law she would not have been raped, except by her owner.

To quote a muslim cleric
"“If you take out uncovered meat and place it outside on the street, or in the garden or in the park, or in the backyard without a cover, and the cats come and eat it…whose fault is it, the cats or the uncovered meat,” the sheik told the congregation.
“The uncovered meat is the problem.

“If she was in her room, in her home, no problem would have occurred.”

[NasEscobar]

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If she had followed the law she would not have been raped,

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Does that make the rape and punishment justified?

[Lestat]

<font color="blue">We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. </font>

I feel I'm doing something (albeit all to little), by merely trying to bring attention to this atrocity and be outspoken about it. I am also a contributor to the support of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has a fatwa out on her for the outrageous crime of trying to gain her individual freedom from Islam. I urge others to do the same.

[DougShrapnel]

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If she had followed the law she would not have been raped,

[/ QUOTE ]
Does that make the rape and punishment justified?

[/ QUOTE ] According to a muslim cleric, yes, she is to blame. We must be respectful of religious beliefs.

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
<font color="blue">We posters aren’t going to do anything about this. </font>

I feel I'm doing something (albeit all to little), by merely trying to bring attention to this atrocity and be outspoken about it. I am also a contributor to the support of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who has a fatwa out on her for the outrageous crime of trying to gain her individual freedom from Islam. I urge others to do the same.

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Cool, Stat. Dang, I already wrote in Borodog's thread I want to be chez when I grow up. You are giving him a run for the money in my book with this. Good job.

[chezlaw]

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There are a few issues here.

1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car.
2) The punishment for said crime – lashing.
3) Whether or not anyone should care.


1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well.

2) I am against capital and corporal punishment.

3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned.

I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing.

I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam.

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Just to be clear. The quote is in response to the teddy bear news not the raped women.

chez

[RJT]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
There are a few issues here.

1) The religious law itself – she was in an unrelated man’s car.
2) The punishment for said crime – lashing.
3) Whether or not anyone should care.


1) I don’t have an opinion on this. If one wants to believe in this (if that is what a correct interpretation of Islam says) then, oh well.

2) I am against capital and corporal punishment.

3) Here is a good example of my response to Sklansky’s thread regarding CNN news and CNN giving so much time to stories like OJ. In that thread I suggested that it really doesn’t matter much what is on the news unless the viewer is going to be affected by it personally or if the viewer is going to act in some manner upon what is learned.

I think most of us find this story disturbing. And most of us will do nothing.

I agree with the sentiments that the most effective avenue for change should probably come from within the Islam hierarchy itself; especially given the quote from Dr Zaki which seems to suggest that this probably is a bad interpretation of Islam.

[/ QUOTE ]
Just to be clear. The quote is in response to the teddy bear news not the raped women.

chez

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Oh, so he supports the Teddybear, but not the woman. Just kidding. Thanks for the clarification.

[luckyme]

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Also, to have an opinion on how another Religion should interpret its text is beyond my knowledge. So, really I’d rather not give an opinion on Islam tradition/laws.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the Glass House dilemma that moderates are caught in. It's one of the targets of some of the neo-atheists.

People who claim their moral are derived from private messages or coded ancient texts can't very well deny the other guy the right to do the same. So they can't enter into the "is this a moral action" discussion because the answer is "what does his book say". If it says it ok it's ok, same argument they'd use for a action based on their book or private sourced info.

People like me don't give a [censored] what book some cult is claiming moral authority from. There are actions taken against people that are immoral by any meaning of humanity worth wanting. Moderates ARE one of the worlds problems precisely because of this running cover for the extremists that their approach to morality provides.

luckyme