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Old 11-28-2007, 03:35 PM
I.Rowboat I.Rowboat is offline
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Default 40/80, TT, what to do?

Bay101 40/80 main game. Game has been good and not terribly nitty. My image is good and I am up a rack or so when the following hand takes place:

UTG opens. I have no history with this player, but he seems reasonable. After running well in the Must Move he hasn't played as many pots in the main game, and hasn't won many of the pots he has played, and appears to be a little frustrated. He's tried a few FPS moves within the last half hour that haven't worked. He rarely limps, and his range here could be large.

UTG+1 (Lee, female prop) cold calls. I like the way Lee plays and think she is one of the better players and more consistent winners in this game; she is a solid TAG. I don't know if she has a history with UTG, but she is a recent arrival to the main game and did not play with UTG in the Must Move, and thus has only seen his recent play in the main game. I think her cold calling range here is KQs+, AQo+, and maybe a medium pocket pair, though I think she three bets any pair higher than 88 and folds any pair smaller than 66 (and she probably folds 66 and 77 in this spot much of the time).

I am UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and three bet. All fold to UTG, who calls. UTG+1 also calls.

Flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I...?

Call? Raise? Fold? Each has some merit. I'm certain I'm behind UTG+1 at this point, but I have outs, though UTG is still in the pot and will act after me. Comments appreciated.
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2007, 04:10 PM
Fianchetto Fianchetto is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

I've played with her a few times before, and while she struck me as a generally ok player, I dunno...does a solid TAG cold call preflop in that spot? It would be very rare for me to flat call in her postion there preflop.

Anyway, yes that flop hits her cold calling range hard, and you are likely behind. Thing is you are getting a good price w/ somewhere between 4-6 outs. Without the gutter, pretty easy fold I think. As it is you should continue and raising is probably best since you may be able to knock out UTG's AK, and get it checked to you on the turn. Probably check the turn if you don't improve.
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Old 11-28-2007, 05:14 PM
goofball goofball is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

Lee has you beat almost 100% I think. She pretty much has to have top or second pair here and it doesn't sound like she's ever folding. People who donk into the preflop 3bettor have something most of the time. I'd just call.
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  #4  
Old 11-28-2007, 06:24 PM
Bicycles_Biatch Bicycles_Biatch is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

Against a tag prop... I think a raise here will buy you two free cards and a free show down unless she has SET.
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2007, 07:41 PM
Coelacanth Coelacanth is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

I've played a lot with Lee. I'm calling this flop and folding turn unimproved. She probably gives me more action than she would to many others, but even so I think you get 3-bet with any Q pretty often. I wouldn't raise unless I was very confident that she wouldn't 3-bet KQ/AQ here - and even if she doesn't 3-bet the flop, she's very capable of betting a blank turn. I don't think anything really good happens if you raise most of the time.

Also, Lee's cold calling range is wider than you think. She's pretty decent postflop but does the same thing as all the mid limit props at Bay 101 - calls early raises with AJo/KQo/87s/55 type hands. It's also kind of dependent on how bad she's running.
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2007, 08:18 PM
J.A.Sucker J.A.Sucker is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

Raise it up!!!111

Fiancetto is right, as usual here. You're behind, but have outs and you would love to get it headsup and take a free card on the turn. You would also hate to get jammed on the flop after calling a single bet, since you pretty much need to see the turn. You may be able to freeze up the action by raising on the flop, even if the pot stays 3-handed and the others have a hand. In this case, they may try to get a check-raise on the turn and you can check it behind.

FWIW, I haven't played much with Lee, but she's never struck me as a great player. I don't think she's a long-term winner.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2007, 10:39 PM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

[ QUOTE ]
Bay101 40/80 main game. Game has been good and not terribly nitty. My image is good and I am up a rack or so when the following hand takes place:

UTG opens. I have no history with this player, but he seems reasonable. After running well in the Must Move he hasn't played as many pots in the main game, and hasn't won many of the pots he has played, and appears to be a little frustrated. He's tried a few FPS moves within the last half hour that haven't worked. He rarely limps, and his range here could be large.

UTG+1 (Lee, female prop) cold calls. I like the way Lee plays and think she is one of the better players and more consistent winners in this game; she is a solid TAG. I don't know if she has a history with UTG, but she is a recent arrival to the main game and did not play with UTG in the Must Move, and thus has only seen his recent play in the main game. I think her cold calling range here is KQs+, AQo+, and maybe a medium pocket pair, though I think she three bets any pair higher than 88 and folds any pair smaller than 66 (and she probably folds 66 and 77 in this spot much of the time).

I am UTG+2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and three bet. All fold to UTG, who calls. UTG+1 also calls.

Flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets, I...?

Call? Raise? Fold? Each has some merit. I'm certain I'm behind UTG+1 at this point, but I have outs, though UTG is still in the pot and will act after me. Comments appreciated.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't like the raise against a smart TAG. They are always paranoid about allowing free card raises and often 3 bet. She could have AQs, AJs, or maybe KQs. Those are almost the only hands that smart players cold call with when no others have yet cold called. Call and fold unimproved on the turn. You don't want to invest lots of money here. If I were she, I'd either 3 bet you on the flop or call your raise and donk the turn. You are not getting a free card if I have any piece of the flop. Free card raises are for use against mediocre players and players who always go for the check raise on the turn. Against better players they are negative ev, just like Stox says in his book.

If you had a couple of other players who you may knock out with the raise then it may work okay. But you only have the UTG guy who may be going for a check raise. This is a toss up between a call and fold. With two opponents in for 3 bets each preflop and two broadway overs, it is usually a fold. Getting 10:1 with about 4.5 to 5 adjusted outs, it is worth investing one more small bet to see the turn.

Also, if she is semi-bluffing and gets two callers on the flop, you'll probably get a free card on the turn without a raise. Most people don't continue the semi-bluff on the turn, out of position, against two opponents.
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  #8  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:30 AM
I.Rowboat I.Rowboat is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

[ QUOTE ]
I don't like the raise against a smart TAG. They are always paranoid about allowing free card raises and often 3 bet. She could have AQs, AJs, or maybe KQs. Those are almost the only hands that smart players cold call with when no others have yet cold called. Call and fold unimproved on the turn. You don't want to invest lots of money here. If I were she, I'd either 3 bet you on the flop or call your raise and donk the turn. You are not getting a free card if I have any piece of the flop. Free card raises are for use against mediocre players and players who always go for the check raise on the turn. Against better players they are negative ev, just like Stox says in his book.

If you had a couple of other players who you may knock out with the raise then it may work okay. But you only have the UTG guy who may be going for a check raise. This is a toss up between a call and fold. With two opponents in for 3 bets each preflop and two broadway overs, it is usually a fold. Getting 10:1 with about 4.5 to 5 adjusted outs, it is worth investing one more small bet to see the turn.

Also, if she is semi-bluffing and gets two callers on the flop, you'll probably get a free card on the turn without a raise. Most people don't continue the semi-bluff on the turn, out of position, against two opponents.

[/ QUOTE ]

This was exactly the thought process I went through in the hand, and exactly how I played it.

I am UTG+2 with T T and three bet. All fold to UTG, who calls. UTG+1 also calls.

Flop:

8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

UTG checks, UTG+1 bets,
I call, UTG c/r, UTG+1 3 bets, I fold, UTG caps, UTG+1 calls.

Turn:

x

Bet, call

River:

y

Bet, call

Showdown: UTG has A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], UTG+1 has A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I was surprised that Lee had a hand as weak as she did, considering all the action on either side of her, and that she had no redraw apart from (perhaps) a miracle queen. It did make me reevaluate her play; maybe in my previous sessions she just had good cards/good situations, or I never saw her face a really tough decision.

Thanks for the analysis, guys. I feel pretty good about my play in this hand. And Sucker, it was nice talking with you last night; good luck w/the book.
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  #9  
Old 11-29-2007, 06:43 AM
pjf1969 pjf1969 is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

side question-only played in LA a few times-never SF area-are the props getting paid to play when a game is full and has a feeder? How do you know when walking in off the street who the props are? Excellent post! I enjoyed reading emersons comments, I just started reading this forum and was about to shoot myself from all the redundant comments that exist in every thread-seems like five people need to chim in with the same comment
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2007, 12:48 PM
Nate. Nate. is offline
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Default Re: 40/80, TT, what to do?

pjf--

The redundancy is actually a critical part of how these forums work. After a while you learn who the best players around here are, and when a bunch of them chime in with the same comment that's reasonable evidence that they're all right.

The issue here is that if such an implicit system didn't exist, anyone who wanted to contribute to a thread would have to put some real time and effort into a post. It's not time-efficient for a lot of the experts here. That said, effort-intensive posts are a great way to get better, and I suggest you try to make them.

Anyway, once you see how consensus and dialogue work around here, you probably won't want to shoot yourself due to the redundancy. Maybe for other reasons, but not the redundancy.

--Nate
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