Kool-Aid didn’t kill those people.

[coberst]

[ QUOTE ]
And then comes the question:

Is the individual more important than the group?

And think about that one before answering it, because it is actually an extremely tricky question when you start taking more and more stuff into consideration.

[/ QUOTE ]

Our society is not a mix of individuals, it is a system of positions. We are members of various matricies of ideas to which we give our live and allegence.

[coberst]

I would say that an ideology is an interlocking system of ideas to which we give great value. These are values that define US and those who oppose US is THEM. US tries to defeat THEM often any way that we can. Our ideologies define our identity.

[Splendour]

I will play devil's advocate here and stir all of SMP up. While there are definitely group transference problems in ideology and the execution of ideology can be flawed, its only through organization that major tasks like building the pyramids can be accomplished. Ideology can be just as ennobling as it is debasing.

Just as a side note: capitalism was an outgrowth of the Puritans and their Protestant work ethic

Hypnotism is a form of occultism and Christians are told to spurn it. I don't know how other religions regard it. Though I do agree Hitler was hypnotic. He was an unscrupulous rhetorician. If you think Hitler wasn't influenced by occultism then take a look at who he dedicated Mein Kampf to: Dietrich Eckhardt.

Humans have this little Janus head thing going on at all times. We are born of 2 fathers. Remember Charlie Sheen's character in Platoon. In the ebb and flow of circumstances and the conflicts they generate we lose track of that little fact. Individualism can be our salvation or it could be our curse depending on our motivations.

I choose not to stereotype religious people as a bunch of blind fools because I think people make choices based on how they weigh the evidence and how they will act on it. Their choices are not necessarily any less enlightened than those of non-religious people.

I ran across a forward by John Banville to Nabokov's <u>Laughter in the Dark</u> the other day. Banville said Nabokov acknowledged there was a pattern in everything. He found it incredibly detailed everywheres he looked and so he tried to make his works as detailed as a reflection of the world, but at the same time Nabokov had a hard time finding God present. It was like someone came in and built and incredibly complex beautiful world then discarded it. (Nabokov had this huge hobby, a real passion, where he collected and studied butterflies from boyhood which he learned from his aristocratic father in Imperial Russia.)

A religious person sees the same thing as Nabokov we just say God didn't discard us. Maybe God likes mystery because the element of beauty and interest are in its mystery.

Here's a link to a religious man at his finest:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/4906502.stm

[Lestat]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that an ideology is an interlocking system of ideas to which we give great value. These are values that define US and those who oppose US is THEM. US tries to defeat THEM often any way that we can. Our ideologies define our identity.

[/ QUOTE ]

Right. Ideologies in and of themselves aren't necessarily a bad thing. The question (I think) is, how do people as a group come to start believing irrational or bad idealogies?

There is great power in numbers. Once several people whom others respect start professing an idealogy to be true, others are either persuaded or embarrassed into believing it too. I think the more people who are already on the bandwagon, the less thinking it takes for the next person to jump on. An assumption is made that the idea is good. Either that, or the fear of ridicule and embarrassment that would come from going against the grain, overrides rational thought.

It really is a fascinating subject. I wish I knew more about it. It just seems to me, that when a mass group of people start believing something, it takes on a life of it's own and there's no stopping them. Again, I think the Bush presidency is a very interesting and typical example of mass thinking. At first, almost everyone was willing to overlook the obvious. Once enough people started turning the other way, did middle America (and Joe average) follow.

[React1oN]

[coberst]

I agree that we are creatures who seek pattern. We respond to pattern in music and we demand pattern in learning. Without it we are lost. Math is our great accomplishment in the art and science of pattern.

[coberst]

A good example of the power and danger of ideology is the neo-con influence on our government. It seems like a great monster that was lurking out there without most of us knowing it.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
I would say that an ideology is an interlocking system of ideas to which we give great value. These are values that define US and those who oppose US is THEM. US tries to defeat THEM often any way that we can. Our ideologies define our identity.

[/ QUOTE ]
Okay, what do you call an ideology then [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

chez

[NasEscobar]

[ QUOTE ]
I've been meaning to make a post about this...

It seems very obvious to me that people in groups or masses are on a whole, much less intelligent (or is it more gullible?), than people acting on an individual or small scale basis. There is just no other way to explain things like the Jonestown massacre, the re-election of Bush, and religion in general.

No offense, but I'd be willing to bet that if you somehow managed to live to this point in life having never heard of religion before, and someone came up to you today and tried to convince you that there's this all-poweful sky god, see? And no one can see him, ok? But he knows your every thought and can hear billions of people's prayers simultaneously, see? If you piss him off, he will send you to this very nasty place. But if you only do what he says, he will grant you eternal life even after you die! Well.... Let's just say I highly doubt you'd buy any of it and would probably laugh in the guy's face.

Yet religion, Jime Jones, Charles Manson, etc., all thrive upon "the group mind" and this is what makes them so powerful (and at times, dangerous).

[/ QUOTE ]
This is a very good post thank you for this.

[chezlaw]

[ QUOTE ]
Yet religion, Jime Jones, Charles Manson, etc., all thrive upon "the group mind" and this is what makes them so powerful (and at times, dangerous).

[/ QUOTE ]
Like 'altruism' this 'group mind' is a myth.

fair enough you have it in quotes so its probably shorthand for something else but the general idea it exists is just lazy analysis of whats going on.

chez