Two Plus Two Newer Archives  

Go Back   Two Plus Two Newer Archives > Limit Texas Hold'em > Medium Stakes Limit

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #21  
Old 10-30-2007, 05:03 PM
bdaddy bdaddy is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: bay area, CA
Posts: 241
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

I think this turn raise is for value, but it's close. I think this is where you could use a live read to help with what to do on a blank river, but I lean towards bet if you aren't 3 bet on the turn.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 10-30-2007, 05:11 PM
AAlphamale AAlphamale is offline
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 11
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

Call turn, fold river un-improuved.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 10-30-2007, 05:19 PM
*TT* *TT* is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Vehicle Chooser For Life!
Posts: 17,198
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

[ QUOTE ]
I guess my real question is- do I bet a blank river-- that;s waht I meant. If I am not betting a blank river then it is a free showdown raise. If I am betting a blank river, then its a value raise. etc etc etc

[/ QUOTE ]

1) check behind on the river if you don't improve.

2) This is a 100% value raise. You don't have to fire again on the river for there to be value.
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 10-30-2007, 05:25 PM
cgrohman cgrohman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

Hmm. I don't understand. If I am raising the turn, and it's for value, then I think I am ahead vs. his range. Thus, shouldn't I also bet the river for value if a blank hits.?
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 10-30-2007, 05:53 PM
BadBigBabar BadBigBabar is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: the green elephant returns
Posts: 520
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

[ QUOTE ]
Call turn, fold river un-improuved.

[/ QUOTE ]

l
o
l
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:06 PM
Garland Garland is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,828
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

[ QUOTE ]
I gave a lot of thought to this. I'm not sure what the answer would have been at the time, but I believe the correct answer against this player is YES.

Aside from value, I raised the turn because I held the As, which, against this player, and most players, means that after the flop action, he just can't/won't 3-bet the turn, even with A King high flush for fear that I am holding the nuts.

[/ QUOTE ]

"Yes" to a free showdown after raising the turn if a blank river falls? There's got to be something I'm missing here.

There are certain few opponents who if the action on the flop played out exactly like this, they will hold a flush 100% [Yes, they exist]. Against these opponents the play is very easy. Call down and fold the river unimproved (well, I admit it's never easy to fold a set).

[ QUOTE ]
He is capable of playing weak made hands or hand/draw combinations fairly strong.

[/ QUOTE ]

But based on this read, I don't think he's one of those certain opponents. And it sounds like you're uncertain about his range, as I would be with that quote above. To me taking a line like raising the turn and checking the river is inconsistent. Let's suppose your opponent never folds to a raise (reasonable). If you're raising the turn, you're saying you can crush his range and should be betting the river unimproved as well.

Now if you're unsure of his range and think you can beat some of his hands, but actually think the weight's very heavy towards a flopped flush, well then there's absolutely no reason to raise the turn even when you hit your set! Granted, that turned A improves your hand and makes you more excited and happy about your full house/nut flush prospects, but you are still behind a flush. Why exactly do you raise the turn? It's not like you're afraid of giving free cards. Let's see. On the turn against this opponent with this play, you are either (a) ahead and he has exactly 0 outs or maybe 1 out if he holds a set or (b) you are behind, but you have 17 outs.

If you raise the turn unnecessarily, all you do is open yourself to a turn 3-bet by a flush, and then you'll be cursing yourself when the river blanks and you fold because you cost yourself an extra bet and a showdown. Or you'll call because you can't fold a set and curse at yourself twice as much because you lost 2 more big bets than you should have.

Call the turn and call the river unimproved, and obviously raise the river if you improve. Keep it simple.

Garland
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:24 PM
emerson emerson is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 818
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

[ QUOTE ]
$20-$40 near you:

Villian has just enough of a brain to get himself into trouble. He is capable of playing weak made hands or hand/draw combinations fairly strong. He is break-even at best. He views me as a TAG but likely thinks I am over agressive/trying to run him over at times, which is definitely true.

UTG calls, UTG+1 calls, I raise in MP with A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Villan calls in BB, limpers call.

Flop: 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Action: Checked to me, I bet, BB raises, UTG calls, UTG+1 folds, I 3-bone, BB caps, UTG calls, I call.

Turn: A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

BB bets, UTG folds, and I insta-raise

Holla?

[/ QUOTE ]

It is not a free show down raise because you don't plan to fold to a re-raise and you don't plan to fold to a river donk. A free showdown raise is made on the turn with a weak made hand that you intend to invest a maximum of two more bets in, thus you invest both of them on the turn rather than calling the turn and the river. This is not even a semi-bluff raise but simply a legitimate attempt to get more money in the pot on a hand you figure to be the best currently (value bet).

I like the turn raise. I like never folding this hand. I like calling a turn 3 bet. I like calling a river donk. I like betting the river if checked to.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:26 PM
cgrohman cgrohman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

This is a fantastic post and sort of the response I was hoping for. I was unsure of his range. I agree with all of your above comments except for maybe the conclusion. By rasing the turn and checking the river unimproved, I am putting in the same number of bets as I would if calling down, plus I win one more bet if I improve. Why not do this?
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:46 PM
Garland Garland is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: San Francisco, CA
Posts: 2,828
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

[ QUOTE ]
This is a fantastic post and sort of the response I was hoping for. I was unsure of his range. I agree with all of your above comments except for maybe the conclusion. By rasing the turn and checking the river unimproved, I am putting in the same number of bets as I would if calling down, plus I win one more bet if I improve. Why not do this?

[/ QUOTE ]

I edited my post before you replied. The reason you don't raise turn is you will open yourself to a turn 3-bet, which will be an absolute disaster as mentioned in the edited post. I'm sorry, but I don't agree with your assessment that he will just call with even a K-high flush. Unless you're going against the most scared opponent in the world, which from your initial read it doesn't sound like, you are getting 3-bet by a flush.

Additional proof he'll 3-bet you with flush?

[ QUOTE ]
He views me as a TAG but likely thinks I am over agressive/trying to run him over at times, which is definitely true.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sounds like the perfect opportunity for villain to stand up to a "bully" like yourself. With a made flush.

Garland
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 10-30-2007, 06:53 PM
cgrohman cgrohman is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 1,754
Default Re: The Hated Free Showdown Raise Maybe

Ok. What if we were to assume he would never 3 bet the turn, even with a king high flush? Would a turn raise followed by river check be the best line then?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:55 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.