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  #21  
Old 10-22-2007, 01:19 AM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

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My roommate and I had a long theoretical argument based on a hand that came up at the 30-60 HG game.

Principal players:

My roommate - pretty tight 2p2'er... everyone realizes he is a positional player, he has been three beating a lot from the HJ and button... but ironically he has had the goods several times, turning over KK on the button twice.

He is kind of a goofy guy... so I think he gets WAY more action than he should based on the fact that he is a good player and/or has a pretty tight preflop raise range. The way people view him is kind of an anomaly to me.

SB- Typical lose-mid-aged-asian-LA player.

BB- ROCK- ROCK- ROCK

folded to my buddy on the button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], RAISE

Call, Call

Flop K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Check, Check, Bet

Call, Fold

Turn Queen[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Check, my roomy bets.

SB C/R's... my roommate folds.

Here's the argument.

ME- I HATE taking any line that doesn't allow me to get to showdown with a hand that has value. Furthermore... it seems like the overused "play" around LA is to C/R the turn against a steal raise with any hand, any draw, and/or ace high (pretty standard); this seems to be used WAY more around LA than would seem optimal.

I feel if you are going to fold this turn for one bet... why not just check behind and use that one bet you pumped into the pot on the turn to call a river bet and get to show-down?

I really think this guy's C/R range includes any flush draw, a King (obviously), a Queen, and all pocket pairs lower than 9's.

My Roomy- He feels you absolutely HAVE to bet here to charge hands like Ace high, flush draws, and smaller pairs... however, he feels it's an easy fold to the check raise.

I obviously disagree, due to my roomies age, his obvious steal position, and the looseness of the villian... I think folding this turn is really bad. AND, if you are capable of folding here for one bet... why not just check behind and get to the showdown for one bet?

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Of course it is a fold, two broadway overs. But you have to make that decision before you bet on the turn. You are going to invest one more bet, and one bet only, to try to win this pot. You can either check the turn to try to induce a bluff on the river, and invest your bet in calling. Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise. Which plan is best depends on the opponent. Against aggressive and tricky opponents the check on the turn is often best to avoid being forced into folding the best hand. Against conservative and passive opponents you have to bet the turn. They will not check raise frequently enough to make this a strong threat (and when they do you're beat and can comfortably fold), and you can't often induce a river bluff out of such players.
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  #22  
Old 10-22-2007, 02:26 PM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

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All--

Who else prefers 3-betting the turn to calling?

--Nate

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Is this so that you can comfortably fold to a 4th bet and/or get a check/ check scenario on the river? I'm a little lost on this line?

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Yes, that would be the idea. Essentially a free showdown three bet. I don't like investing three bets with a pocket pair while two broadway overs are up there. But if you do then this is probably the best way to do it.

He says to do this "instead of calling". I don't like calling here, but if you were going to then you have obviously made the decision that you will call unimproved on the river because you don't have the pot odds to call with a two outer. Some of your reason for calling would have to be that you feel your hand currently may be best. So, having mentally decided that you will put in another two bets after the check raise [img]/images/graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] , I like Nate's idea. But that's the end of it. You fold to a 4 bet or to a river donk.
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  #23  
Old 10-22-2007, 02:35 PM
Bicycles_Biatch Bicycles_Biatch is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

What about calling, 3 betting, or checking to GET to showdown for another reason.

The pool of players that play that HG 30-60 are pretty small... I think it's important to let players know that you can't be check raised / bullied off hands.

Right wrong or indifferent... the players in that game know that I'm the aggressor... I'm GETTING to showdown. For that reason I get more action with my big hands... and I feel like people don't try to "get" me to fold by making "plays"
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  #24  
Old 10-22-2007, 03:04 PM
casellaKid casellaKid is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

[ QUOTE ]
Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you check behind on a river blank?
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  #25  
Old 10-23-2007, 12:08 AM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

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[ QUOTE ]
Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.
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  #26  
Old 10-23-2007, 12:13 AM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

[ QUOTE ]
What about calling, 3 betting, or checking to GET to showdown for another reason.

The pool of players that play that HG 30-60 are pretty small... I think it's important to let players know that you can't be check raised / bullied off hands.

Right wrong or indifferent... the players in that game know that I'm the aggressor... I'm GETTING to showdown. For that reason I get more action with my big hands... and I feel like people don't try to "get" me to fold by making "plays"

[/ QUOTE ]


Yeah, those are meta-game considerations and require more information than we have here. Such things are variation plays for image and outside what would be the standard theoretical way to play a situation. If you folded to a couple of check raises recently then that would be cause to maybe call, like you say.
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  #27  
Old 10-23-2007, 05:31 AM
casellaKid casellaKid is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

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Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

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Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.

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If you bet the turn and he calls and he checks a river blank, there's no reason to think he has a king or queen, therefore you should bet.
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  #28  
Old 10-23-2007, 07:10 AM
vmacosta vmacosta is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

i wouldn't consider checking the turn unless villain's line so far means that more than half her range is trips or better.

So if you're right that SB could have many flushdraws and some other pairs/A-hi, then you should def bet the turn. If you don't know what to do when raised, take a guess. It'll still frequently be higher ev than checking.
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  #29  
Old 10-23-2007, 07:14 AM
mike l. mike l. is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

"a guy calls your bet on a K-K-2 flop"

when most players do this against me i can correctly check the turn and fold the river when they bet. every once in awhile ill call if it's a player who can call light and then bluff or value bet a worse hand on the river.
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  #30  
Old 10-24-2007, 03:12 AM
emerson emerson is offline
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Default Re: Button steal hand leads to heated theory argument

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Or you can bet the turn, planning to check behind on the river, but you have to fold to a check raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why would you check behind on a river blank?

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Because your hand isn't good enough to invest two big bets over the turn and river.

If you want to invest more money in these situations, I think it will be costly. But you don't want to give the hands away either. It is establishing a budget for how much you are willing to invest in a hand, and then investing it in the way that will show the most profit in the long run against this particular type opponent.

When you have a pocket pair and there are two broadway overcards on the board you would like to get to showdown as cheaply as possible. In this case, a queen with a mediocre kicker would call you on the turn and would probably not lead into you on the river. Even a King with a weak kicker might play that way. Your nines are just not that strong. There is not much value in betting the river if checked to on a blank because there are very few hands worse than yours that will call, and just about no better hands that will fold.

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If you bet the turn and he calls and he checks a river blank, there's no reason to think he has a king or queen, therefore you should bet.

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Then what is he going to call with? Are we betting just because we think our hand may be best?? If you don't think a poor hand will call or a better hand will fold then there is no reason to bet.
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