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  #31  
Old 09-12-2007, 03:03 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?

serious answer: your opponents are terrible. the opponents at 30/60 are also largely terrible. up until you get to big grapes at 100/200 and the half dozen people playing midstakes I respect, nobody is any good at razz, and if you think villains pay attention, you're either not very good (that's okay, because like I said, nobody including myself is, and if you're the best bad player out of a thousand terrible ones you'll still make lots of money) or grossly overestimating their ability.

also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.
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  #32  
Old 09-12-2007, 03:11 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?

I've put in about 2k hands at 1/2, 5k at .5/1 and about 16k at .25/.5

I've been moving up as bankroll permits. Right now I just take occaisonal shots at 1/2 when conditions are favorable. So far, so good.
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  #33  
Old 09-12-2007, 03:32 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?

[ QUOTE ]
also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't know about Rusty, but if I ever put in "tens of thousands" of hands at 1/2 without making enough bankroll to move up, I'll kill myself.

I also wasn't targeting you, BTW. People who "get it" are just better. You are better because of that. I believe I get Razz in a way I never got hold 'em. But you have the advantage of much greater experience. You can read all the books, I try to, but for me it doesn't stick until I screw it up.

Example of bad play because of inexperience:

I played on PStars 1/2 today and was doing OK. Then I was in a hand with two other players. I was in the middle. First guy caught good, I caught good, third guy caught a Q. First guy bets, (I have like 3A46) and I DIDN'T RAISE. Of course, the Queen called, me and the other good guy both bricked the next two streets and the Queen won when we folded.

Stupid. You raise to get the high card out because he has to face two bets. This is a mistake you wouldn't make in a million years now. And neither would SG. But you might have made at 1/2 few times. I have played this correctly before - but - I am coming off a real bad losing streak. So, I just called - getting too cowardly to risk my money. That won't happen again, I hope.

Higher stakes, for the most part, are earned. Fish at higher stakes are there because they have money and didn't earn the Seat, they bought it. (Not saying they didn't earn the money.)

I think you are very good, Adanthar, because you earned it. You get it. You have the experience, the "poker maturity" that keeps you from serious tilt. The good sense to know we don't win that often because we are so smart, but because we get a little luck and our opponent is not so good.

A long time ago in a universe far, far....well, anyway - I used to be a cop. I was considered to be pretty good at it - had a great arrest record all that. But I knew my "success" was because I had good relations with support staff who'd go to great lengths to find info for me. Citizens trusted me with information. And mostly, because bad guys are generally as dumb as a box o' rocks.

I wasn't tougher or any of that TV crap. I just "got" policework.

Ya want to know why rookies are not as good as experienced cops? They don't know what to kiss off; they don't know when to fold.

prax<---garrously rambling to avoid yardwork
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  #34  
Old 09-12-2007, 04:53 PM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?

[ QUOTE ]
serious answer: your opponents are terrible. the opponents at 30/60 are also largely terrible. up until you get to big grapes at 100/200 and the half dozen people playing midstakes I respect, nobody is any good at razz, and if you think villains pay attention, you're either not very good (that's okay, because like I said, nobody including myself is, and if you're the best bad player out of a thousand terrible ones you'll still make lots of money) or grossly overestimating their ability.

also, if you've put in tens of thousands of hands at 1/2 and are at least breaking even, the rake is killing you. move up.

[/ QUOTE ]

One thing I can say about terrible opponents is that at higher stakes they are often paying attention. They may still do a lot of dumb things, but if they notice that if you always fold 5th with a mediocre board and they are representing a wheel draw, then they will always bet even if they paired up. Or say you try to steal a lot, they will call you down very lightly if your raised from a steal position. So the plays that are your bread and butter in lower stakes get narrowed down in higher stakes b/c the opponents are more 'savvy' even when they are still donks.

IIRC this effect starts at about 3/6, but may be at a different limit at this point. If 2/4 is still the upper end of the microstakes, then that's where you want to take your shots and try to establish a BR since accoring to jbrennen it's a soft spot in the rake structure (at least at FTP).
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  #35  
Old 09-12-2007, 05:46 PM
ChipsAhoya ChipsAhoya is offline
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Default Re: (razz) Why do they bet here? What should I do?

Hmmm, lots of action in this thread since I last checked.

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think that anyone is suggesting that everyone who plays $1/2 is a poor player. There are, however, a lot more poor players than good players at that level. You're a lot better off assuming that an unknown player plays poorly than you are assuming that he plays well.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is the case, at least for myself. It's like in SSHE; you make more money by adjusting to the fact that your average competition is bad. Certainly there are good players at lower limits, but barring a read in the post "oh, seat 8 is good, I saw him..., etc." better advice is given by making adjustments to the "average" opponent at the level. A 1/2 opponent may be loose and not paying attention, an average 10/20 opponent might be a tight player, and the typical 50/100 player is probably very agressive. No offense is meant towards any lower level players on here by making an assumption that will benefit them in the long run. I usually put in my post what I would also do at a higher level, too; you can see that I did in this post. I may be more interested in a 30/60 hand than a 1/2 hand but I take each post as seriously as it wasn't too long ago that I was in the 2/4 and 3/6 HORSE games learning razz. (Taking shots is good if you think you can handle them...)

[ QUOTE ]
I reread SOP yesterday and actually Sklansky recommends that I bet here and/or raise this guy, because my 3 card hand is definitely better than his, and I will be in position for the whole hand unless he pairs. That's something I hadn't considered too closely until recently.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is what I said and SG and I were disagreeing about; which, to get back to his point, yes, I guess you do only have 5 pair cards now, but those 5 cards cost you the entire pot unless he bricks even worse than that, so I feel that getting an extra 54% on a bet now for sure is worth passing up the chance to get, what, 60% on a bet that is admittedly twice as big later, although that's mitigated by the fact that he might not bet into you and you may not be the favorite on 5th.

You can be giving your hand away if you raise this, but only if you only do this w/ A23K. if he has xx8Q; since I like to add deception through aggressive play, I will do this w/ anything up to 567K (barring dead cards, etc.) so a thinking opponent cannot automatically put me on 3 wheel cards. Another benefit to this "extra" but reasonable aggression is that I can check-raise more often.

-ChipsAhoya
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