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  #11  
Old 08-05-2007, 09:56 AM
DcifrThs DcifrThs is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

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And remember the vast majority of the new Debt created in the last 7 years was due to tax cuts on the wealthy rather than spending increases.

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so, you're telling me that the cost of bush's tax cuts are not only "vastly more" than the cost of the war in iraq, but also vastly more than all additional bush govt spending in the past 7 years?

please show cites so i can verify that, because on the surface, that sounds like total rubbish.

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So the debt we are incurring is not necessarily done so for the good of the majority. ( major road construction etc. )

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right, but (and i'll play devils advocate here...i do believe in a fairer tax) which portion of the population PAYS for those things that help the majority (like roads)? if you look at the distribution of tax receipts from the IRS by income level, a ridiculously large majority come from those with over some large minimul level of income (i think it's put at >100k).

then place that the distribution of wealth of US taxpayers over the tax receipts distribution and you see that the minority pay for the majority. so why shouldn't they get a break if it still results in the few paying for far more of everything for the majority?

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Rather the wealth of the super rich has increased dramatically leading to some dramatic demand increases for products and services catering to them.

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right, that tends to happen during massive bull market runs as we've had in the past 5 years. that gain in wealth is not due to tax decreases. if you decompose their increases in wealth, i'd wager a not "drastic" % comes from tax reductions.

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A side benefit that does work for the majorities favor is the rich will invest in private enterprise which can be highly beneficial for the public.

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there's tons more but yes thats 1.

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Overall a shifting of the financial burden to the future so that the current generation of rich can be richer. An interesting case of how this works out is the Gates Foundation. Bill Gates saves millions of dollars each year due to the tax cuts. He then chooses how this money will be spent for the good of the world. Rather than the US Govt.

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i can't tell what your point is. are you saying gates puts the money he saves in taxes into the foundation? are you saying that "interesting" means "unique" among the rich or something? what does "interesting" mean in your context above?

the foundation has billions, not millions. didn't buffet pledge like $40billion in shares of BH when he dies?

further, the foundation is possibly the largest single privately held aid thing, right? what one is bigger?

their investment strategy is also great because, unlike some charitable organizations, it doesn't plan to exist for more than 50 years or something. so it plans to earn the maximum amount it can from investing, and then pay out more than that every year.

Barron
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  #12  
Old 08-05-2007, 03:25 PM
emon87 emon87 is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

Very well put... it is amazing that people can't seem to comprehend HOW MUCH the rich pay in taxes...

Someone making 150k per year is probably paying more in taxes than the people that whine about it make in a year. They obviously get a larger absolute break from a tax cut
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  #13  
Old 08-06-2007, 07:22 PM
Tornado69 Tornado69 is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

If the Rockefellers and Morgan's and the rest of the scumbags didn't control the money supply and the federal reserve and lend the $ to the gov't at interest the income tax most pay would be a fraction of what it is. Income tax was created when the bankers got control of the money supply.
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  #14  
Old 08-06-2007, 07:36 PM
The once and future king The once and future king is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

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The debt is 'good' for our government because they can print massive amounts of money, create massive inflation, and then the debt will become much more manageable...

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Wait. The government can print money, yet it is in debt.

So you are saying that the government handles its debt by printing money but not to pay off the debt itself, but to erode the debt via inflation of the money supply.

You are missing the vital piece of the puzzle. Money is created by debt, infact in the present system the majority of money is debt. The money supply is inflated by the government debt itself. The vast majority of the money borrowed by the Government didnt exist until they borrowed it, the act of borrowing creates money.

Borrowing/Debt creates alot more money than government printing. It is worth noting that under the present system if there was no public and private debt, there would be virtually no money.
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  #15  
Old 08-06-2007, 08:47 PM
DcifrThs DcifrThs is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

[ QUOTE ]
If the Rockefellers and Morgan's and the rest of the scumbags didn't control the money supply and the federal reserve and lend the $ to the gov't at interest the income tax most pay would be a fraction of what it is. Income tax was created when the bankers got control of the money supply.

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where do you people come from?

seriously... i may use logic to answer posts but then come to an incorrect conclusion, but at least i'm applying some thought.

taxes came from the US govt's inability to finance required spending (first income taxes were for the civil war, repealed a few years afterwards).

income taxes were always WAY higher on those earning more money. for instance for almost 20 years (1945-1964) the marginal tax rate on income over $200k was over 90% (reaching 94% in 1945).

taxes then came down over time and spread out. today, taxes only apply to about 2/3rds of the population and the lowest earners pay no taxes (that 1/3) and in fact receive a subsidy.

anyways, heres a few questions:

1) how do rockefellers & morgan's (and the res tof scumbags...btw, who are they?) control the money supply and the fed?

2) when does the fed lend money to the govt?

3) even if all this is true, how doesthat increase the tax most people pay by multiples? (even if the multiples are small)

and as to your last point, as mentioend above, income tax was not created when bankers got control of the money supply. it was created as needed by the govt to finance needs (mostly wars. this theory is very solid and you can see marginal tax rates increase during times of war and decrease during times of peace or times of detante during the cold war when defense spending was high).

also, tax rates i would bet have little correlation to the level or changes in money supply when you decomose growth out of that.

Barron
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  #16  
Old 08-06-2007, 10:53 PM
im_not_1337 im_not_1337 is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

Its an interesting question. An economics professor described it in college to me basically like this:

Somethings in life are acceptable to be in debt over. Almost everyone is in debt making payments on their house for a number of years. A lot of people are making car payments for a number of years. Even student loans are viewed as acceptable debt. So why isn't it acceptable for the United States as a country to be in debt over things as important as social security and having the money to fight a war(whether you agree with the war or not)?

He didn't give me his opinion on the subject, but i think what he was suggesting was indifference. In that, its not really hurting the country as long as the debt doesn't go too far, but its not really helping the country either.
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  #17  
Old 08-07-2007, 12:07 AM
Preem Preem is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

According to Ken Fisher, deficits which add to the overall debt, tend to be a good thing for the stock market.

If you look back at the past few decades, rising deficits usually were a leading indicator of upward movements in the stock market, whereas, budget surpluses were followed by downturns.

Fisher is politically conservative, so one might suspect that his views are skewed. However, he is a highly respected money manager.
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  #18  
Old 08-07-2007, 01:44 AM
cbloom cbloom is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

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According to Ken Fisher, deficits which add to the overall debt, tend to be a good thing for the stock market.

If you look back at the past few decades, rising deficits usually were a leading indicator of upward movements in the stock market, whereas, budget surpluses were followed by downturns.

Fisher is politically conservative, so one might suspect that his views are skewed. However, he is a highly respected money manager.

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Government spending in excess of taxation stimulates the economy in the short term !? NO WAI !?
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  #19  
Old 08-07-2007, 02:26 AM
irunnotgood irunnotgood is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

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I'd say it depends on your credit. Since US has the best credit, it can borrow at ridiculously low rates, and then grow investment

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Very true, but how long will that last?
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  #20  
Old 08-08-2007, 06:30 PM
Jimbo Jimbo is offline
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Default Re: Is the national debt a good thing or a bad thing?

[ QUOTE ]
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I'd say it depends on your credit. Since US has the best credit, it can borrow at ridiculously low rates, and then grow investment

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Very true, but how long will that last?

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Until we run out of "smart bombs", so pretty much forever.

Jimbo
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