Common Critical Situation on Flop: To raise or not to raise TPTK?

[Sunny Mehta]

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why not do this on the flop? in SS brunson writes that all significant decisions are made on the flop. i still believe this is basically true.


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limon,

though I do think there are valid arguments to both sides, my reasoning is basically because there is only one card to come as opposed to two - WHICH ALSO MEANS one street of betting left as opposed to two....it's hard to make a blocking bet/raise on the flop if you then check the turn and have to play one more street.....also, I have a feeling that many games we all play in now are deeper than in Brunson's day (can't say for sure but take a look at the buy-in chart he shows in the book) WHICH MEANS that commitment decisions and commitment raises are often made on the turn (or even the river) and not the flop.....in games where everyone is 300BB deep, it's hard to make any kind of threatening raise on the flop period, and many people (often correctly) will take a card off on the flop with many hands......

I read through that old thread of yours that someone referred to in this thread, and while I agree with a lot of your reasoning (as well as the other people's counter-reasoning), I think the crucial point is when you say "IF YOU PLAN ON GOING TO THE RIVER"......when I'm 300BB deep I'll sometimes call bets (even pot-sized bets) on the turn with a made hand (I'm not talking about a drawing hand) and then fold to a pot-sized bet on the river because of a good read and a lack of being committed (because of stack depth).....that almost never happens with 100BB's - my decision is made on the turn/flop.......for example, say I had AK on an A-rag-rag board and called two pot-sized bets in position against a tight player - there are certain times I might fold the hand to a big river bet if I knew that particular player would never bet one pair like that on the river.....

[limon]

agreed in principal. definitely for on line. i think in a live game there is so much you can do with nonverbal communication most of my decisions are made on the flop.

[Matt Flynn]

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agreed in principal. definitely for on line. i think in a live game there is so much you can do with nonverbal communication most of my decisions are made on the flop.

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We haven't even scratched the surface of tell warfare vs average players. You've written a fair amount about it in the past, probably more than anyone here.

[Matt Flynn]

coltrane,

Thanks for the detailed response. I like the turn raise strategy a lot, especially after getting a chance on the turn to make a decision with a little more feel. I have mucked that hand on the turn many a time, hating it and probably saving a ton of money.

Good point about the commitment threshold being out of reach on the flop without a reraise. Interesting how so many 5-10 and 10-20 players still do not get that concept.

[Matt Flynn]

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"but very often I'll raise here in position on the turn (with both AQ/QJ): it allows me to take control of the hand, it puts immense pressure on my opponent and often folds out better hands, it gives no free cards to hands that are drawing fairly live, it acts as a value/blocking bet that allows me to check-check the river to showdown if I want, it often gives me a "free" chance to catch up on the river if I was behind, and if I get reraised I am 100% behind (and often drawing dead) and is an easy fold....."

why not do this on the flop? in SS brunson writes that all significant decisions are made on the flop. i still believe this is basically true.

for matt; in a live game you can make a smallish raise in such a way to show incredible strength, this may be the play you are looking for. this is the flop play i would make. those who know they are either way ahead or way behind are kidding themselves. ive never had the turn go check check so i cant help you with that.

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limon how do you feel about shutting down action with that raise?

[limon]

i like to do something to confuse my opponent, to get them into call down mode, the action wouldnt be shut down just controlled by me (hopefully)

[adanthar]

for a ninja bump this is a good thread

[KaneKungFu123]

really isnt any reason to raise here.

[g-p]

old limon thread that might be helpful:

http://archiveserver.twoplustwo.com/show...rt=all&vc=1

[creedofhubris]

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really isnt any reason to raise here*.

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*unless opponent sucks ass