Basic Question - High Ante's No Fold'em 7Stud

[RobNottsUk]

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these are the most beatable games there are.

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Hmm, a place I play at has ante as 25% the SB, and Bring-in is 50%. I assume that's as high as it gets for on-line.

From my reccords, I've only seen ONE person with over 1K hands, that was still in the black.

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That's something that concerned me. Though now reading SS1 Chip Reese describes 20% of SB and 40%-50% FBI of SB, a "medium" ante game. I presumed High because ToP describes 10% of SB being 'average' and 20% of SB as High.

The point is you need to be able either :

1) Outplay opponents 4th-7th
2) Starting Hand that's a money favourite
3) Speculate with favourable implied odds

I find big pairs like QQ or JJ, frequently become reverse implied odds liabilities late in hand, where you cannot thin the field.

It's hard to value bet Q's up, when you're check-ed to by 2 players, who both had plausible draws, and will also check/raise with a set on 7th (possibly sandbagged from 6th; the Fishes favourite deceptive move). Their calls don't tell you anything, so when they check yet again, it's easy to miss bets, or lose extra bets by guessing wrongly.

There's a lack of information to guide accurate long run decision, and bet/fold might be disastrous losing the pot to a weaker 2 pair, against a wild raise by a weak opponent who just made a pair of Aces or nothing!

Now, I have extra Vig of bonus points. So I don't mind playing 7Stud even at a slight loss, simply because a contributory bonus point scheme makes points far easier to earn in 7Stud than say FLHE. Any bleeding I do on 7Stud table is more than compensated, by a few hours of FLHE. Also playing a game, that's the largest for a small game rake cap, reduces the downside and the proportionate rake in highly multi-way pots.

What I don't want to do, is play overly tight and just give away my money to High Ante Bluffy Fish who like to attack the Rock strategy at it's weak points, early in the hand.

It'd be nice to have the PokerStars 10% antes and FBI, but there bonus schemes are non-contributory so you need a game where pots are regularly $8 or more, to clear them.

[RobNottsUk]

Thanks guys I've had to leave the table because I won too much!

Had one of those lovely situations where I had K's up on 6th, and rivered J's full K's, where my opponent decided he'd outdrawn me making A's up 2's and I got to take to 3 bets!

Nice haul of points to, though I ran well in Omaha, and scored 5BB in FLHE to boot.

Weird, when you play to clock up points, you make money, and sometimes when playing profit is the sole goal, it's very hard to have hands stand up.

[Red_Diamond]

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That's something that concerned me. Though now reading SS1 Chip Reese describes 20% of SB and 40%-50% FBI of SB, a "medium" ante game. I presumed High because ToP describes 10% of SB being 'average' and 20% of SB as High.

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What concerns me, is how Reese says 5T5 is a hand that should at least be called with, if not raised. And then at least called with till 5'th street where bets get expensive.

And then there is the 2+2 manual, where you are instructed to just throw away this hand from the get-go.

Well, since I'm paying up to 25% the SB just for ante, I figure I'll play the 5T5 hands because I simply cant sit there and ante myself to death. Besides, i've noticed those players playing almost EVERY hand in these structures, seem to be penalized very little for it.

[PoorLawyer]

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That's something that concerned me. Though now reading SS1 Chip Reese describes 20% of SB and 40%-50% FBI of SB, a "medium" ante game. I presumed High because ToP describes 10% of SB being 'average' and 20% of SB as High.

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What concerns me, is how Reese says 5T5 is a hand that should at least be called with, if not raised. And then at least called with till 5'th street where bets get expensive.

And then there is the 2+2 manual, where you are instructed to just throw away this hand from the get-go.



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I don't think either Chip or 2+2 is that cut and dry about it. There are times to call with 5T5, times to raise, and times to fold.

[MRBAA]

Indeed. And this is the essence of winning in these games -- you can't just take a strategy from a book and "play right". You need to be constantly adjusting to the specific situation at hand, drawing on your book knowledge and your playing experience for appropriate adjustments. You also need to exercise game selection -- much of your win rate will come from a relatively few bad players, not from the mediocre many.

[RustyBrooks]

That's a really important point. There are a lot of your opponents who play badly enough that they will not be able to win, long term, but not badly enough that you'll take a lot of money from them in the long term, either.

[Red_Diamond]

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Don't know what your limit is offhand, but I'll make two points:

1. At very small limits, the rake is excruciating. The games are beatable because the players are so bad, but the rake really eats into your earn.

2. Anyone who can beat these games can probably also beat a bigger game, presumably for more money. They may not feel compelled to play the smaller game long enough for you to log 1000 hands for them.

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Andy, I've been thinking on this myself for some time. Currently I'll doodle around with a 1-2$ with ante at 25c.

I'm used to it now, though when I first stepped up from 50c/1$ I was a little apprehensive. The next level is 2-4$, though strangely enough, the site has the same ante at 25c. This is a reduction from 25% of the SB to just 12.5% I'd hopefully adjust well (and soon), but I'm still no expert at 7Stud by far.

What truely worries me, is the 300 BB bankroll requirements. I know damn well that it is not out of the norm to go through such bad swings in this game, having myself lost nearly that much before by donkies who refuse to stop chasing, despite my door card is paired, and i've been betting my high trips from the get-go. What can u do?

300 x 4$ brings us to about 1,200$ starting requirements, and the last I checked, the 300 BB rule was a little smaller than it should be.

I'm watching a 2-4$ game right now, and I notice some of the not-so-great players at the 1-2$ games playing here. Then again, maybe they are great, but don't adapt when stepping down in stakes to the doubled ante as well. But what I can't help notice, is the much large pots (bigger swings). Playing 2-4 Hold'em is no worry to me though.

I always do shudder at those who play 15-30$ limits and higher.

BTW, starting bankroll for 15-30$ would be 9K from my calcs.

[Andy B]

300 BB is not a requirement. It's a recommendation, and it's a really good idea if you're playing for a living. Clearly, you are not. A good buy-in for a $2/4 game is $100. If you dust off your current bankroll, how hard is it going to be to get another $100? If you sell bone marrow and plasma, you might even be able to multi-table. Anyway, I think there are several of you that hold yourself back unnecessarily because of arbitrary bankroll requirements.

Bear in mind that I've been broke a time or twelve.

[RobNottsUk]

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That's something that concerned me. Though now reading SS1 Chip Reese describes 20% ...

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What concerns me, is how Reese says 5T5 is a hand that should at least be called with, if not raised. And then at least called with till 5'th street where bets get expensive. In one of the games, I was getting to see 6th or 7th frequently just for 1 small bet on 3rd or 4th.

And then there is the 2+2 manual, where you are instructed to just throw away this hand from the get-go.

Well, since I'm paying up to 25% the SB just for ante, I figure I'll play the 5T5 hands because I simply cant sit there and ante myself to death. Besides, i've noticed those players playing almost EVERY hand in these structures, seem to be penalized very little for it.

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That's a case of playing a speculative hand, where you'll see 4th (may be even 5th) cheap. If the 5's & T's are live, and you'll know where you are and are good enough to fold in a bad spot against 2 good draws, then you'll probably turn a small profit on it, against the random hands held by opponents. In one game, I frequently got to see 6th or 7th, just for cost of FBI and 1 SB on 4th.

Another table my opponents were re-raising and 3 betting on 4th with absolute filth. Against 1 short stack I had QA2 FBI, and made A's on 4th. The short stack who I set AI on 5th (other dude folded after 4 betting of 4th) had something really pretty like 863Q; obviously good for all his money; and that was after blowing a previous BI on 883 v KKA.

In that situation, I don't think you can be stubborn with a p 5's T kicker, unless you catch good on 4th; even if it is the 'best' hand now, it generally won't be on 7th v 2 players (and it may be 2nd best already).

Been much better discussion than I expected, thanks, and especially thank you for anyone who spots errors.

[Red_Diamond]

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Anyway, I think there are several of you that hold yourself back unnecessarily because of arbitrary bankroll requirements.

Bear in mind that I've been broke a time or twelve.

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Well Geeze Andy! Your first sentence there was filled with lots of high hope and encouragement.

And then you had to hit us with reality in the last one...