I dont know how to play mid pairs

[cbloom]

[ QUOTE ]

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, of course I'm not missing that, and that's awesome, but that works just as well with 23o.

Also Kilillan of course he calls *preflop* with much more than JJ+. My question is how can you *show down* TT and win. I don't know how I'm not being clear.

Kilillan so far as I can see what you're saying is "Your hand is probably best, and he will probably fold, so you should bet/raise". I think that's very simplistic/incorrect thinking which is not taking into account his calling range and situations on future streets. Correct if that's not what you're saying. However, lots of winning players seem to think that way. It's almost like aggression does magic things to make you win and I'm trying to understand that better.

Anyway, think of it this way :

Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

What now? You've represented a very strong hand. Say you check, he pots it. Holy big pot you need a big hand to continue.

Maybe you don't check - you bet pot.
Is that a bluff or a value bet?
Unless you have a very very big hand, it's a bluff.

I would say that if "XX" is "TT" that's a bluff on the turn, and it pretty much may as well be 23o.

It's well known from the Shania concept that you should play very hard with your very best hands (your hands which are not bluffs) and also with the very best hands that you would otherwise have folded (perhaps something like 67s here). Your other hands you should not play like bluffs.

Anyway, I still feel rather lost when I play a hand here not as a bluff and not just for set value, so whatever.

[Paul Thomson]

If the button is loose, you should reraise. If the button is really tight on the button than you should call.

Dbitel -
If you reraise and get called on an 8 high board. And the button calls. Then usually check-fold turn even on a blank unless the bet is unusually small.

[Paul Thomson]

As played I can either see leading turn or check-folding as fine. I think check-fold might be better.

[p-i]

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like to point out both of those threads are about raising OOP, not re/raising OOP.

[/ QUOTE ]

ya, so i'll stick to not posting.

[goofyballer]

[ QUOTE ]
Kilillan,

I'm asking for logic, not to be insulted

[/ QUOTE ]

Kilillan, I think we probably play nicer in SSNL than the forums you're used to; don't be so quick to attack others while defending yourself, we're all trying to learn.

I think cbloom's post just now makes a really good point and I'm curious what you think about it.

[Tickner]

[ QUOTE ]
Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]
You gain a ton of value both preflop and on the flop, just by being agressive.

My gut feeling is that if he calls both a preflop RR and calls the flop, and then you check to him, hes betting a large majority of the time.

RR preflop, bet flop, check turn, isn't a line I ever like, but sometimes we have to check fold the turn. Other times, we just check raise it for value. I dont know exactly why, so this might sound like a dummy post, because this really depends on so many factors that its impossible to just state what the actions of our opponents were and then say "this is what you do and its correct/incorrect".

Hopefully someone else can give a better anwser to that one.

But our hand is NOT = 23o, because our hand actually have value, whereas 23o almost never has any value. This hand is the same as 23o if you never hit showdown, but in a RR'ed pot with a half decent hand, you shouldn't hit showdown 0% or its always a bluff. Accoring to what you are saying, KK here is a bluff too because he might have a set!

I see what you are saying. I play a real laggy style of game, so we might be thinking on two different levels. But TT isn't a bluff here by any means. If anything its a semi-bluff that we arent afraid to showdown occasinally, but in the mean time we will steal the pot preflop and on the flop.

hope my rambling made some sort of sense.

[Hince]

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[ QUOTE ]

I think that cbloom is missing the idea that he will indeed fold preflop sometimes so we get value in reraising and sometimes he will call preflop and fold to our cbet so thats also very profitable.


[/ QUOTE ]

Umm, of course I'm not missing that, and that's awesome, but that works just as well with 23o.

Also Kilillan of course he calls *preflop* with much more than JJ+. My question is how can you *show down* TT and win. I don't know how I'm not being clear.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'll start by saying I really like a reraise here preflop. I don't understand your logic. Do you really need to showdown this call to make money? You don't need to get to showdown to get value out of a hand.

[ QUOTE ]

Kilillan so far as I can see what you're saying is "Your hand is probably best, and he will probably fold, so you should bet/raise". I think that's very simplistic/incorrect thinking which is not taking into account his calling range and situations on future streets. Correct if that's not what you're saying. However, lots of winning players seem to think that way. It's almost like aggression does magic things to make you win and I'm trying to understand that better.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's never incorrect to raise with the best hand (ie. it is never -EV). You seem to be saying you want to see a good flop before you commit too much cash. You are losing value. This kind of thinking is simular to a common mistake limit players make when they don't raise preflop with AK, and wait for the flop to make a bet.

The fact is you have equity in the pot, a button raise doesn't signify a hand range that puts you as an underdog.

You are also OOP, with a difficult hand to play. It's a lot easier to play a hand OOP when you have control. It also gives you fold equity against better hands.


[ QUOTE ]

Anyway, think of it this way :

Button opens, you're in the BB, you reraise with XX.
Button will usually fold, okay.
Say he calls, flop is whatever.
You cbet.
Usually he folds, okay, you make money.
But this time he calls.
Turn is whatever.

What now? You've represented a very strong hand. Say you check, he pots it. Holy big pot you need a big hand to continue.

Maybe you don't check - you bet pot.
Is that a bluff or a value bet?
Unless you have a very very big hand, it's a bluff.

I would say that if "XX" is "TT" that's a bluff on the turn, and it pretty much may as well be 23o.



[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very general example, and this is where reads and knowing your opponent come into play. I can't comment on this because you are way to general in your description. It reminds me of the generic questions they use in the Full Tilt adds.

"You have AK in early position, what do you do?"

No offense but I think we can appretiate that this is a difficult hand to play, and you don't always play it the same way... for various reasons.

[quarkncover]

I really like a flop c/r here, considering that cbloom is not asking about preflop I won't delve into that, though I reraise preflop most of the time. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[OMGTILTING]

I think reraising preflop or just calling are both fine.

Its easier to play if you reraise cuz if you are called after cbet that flop you are probebly done with your hand. But its not the same as 23o because some of the time the hand will be checked down and go to showdown and have some value.

On to the actual hand.
flop c/c is good.
turn i think i just c/f most of the time. But he will probebly fire alot with air on this turn since an A or a K on the turn is a great card for him to bluff.

[orange]

RR-ing pf and calling PF are both fine I think. The only problem with rr-ing pf with TT is that your taking a relatively good showdown hand (very often on alot of boards) and turning it into a bluff by the time the money gets in. RR-ing PF makes it very hard to go to showdown and actually think your good.

I think that if your rr-ing PF, you should generally think about what your future actions will be if your opponent calls your c-bet on a blank flop. Are you generally pushing the turn against a TAG opponent, something you would do with AA? Or are you c/f-ing the turn, as you might with AK? These are some things to think about.

I think that if you call PF, then c/c-ing this flop is generally good. c/r is fine for value, but I'm not sure I see too many hands that a TAG calls our c/r with that we beat on the flop. Against a donkey, c/r-ing would be fine I think. If your RR-ing, obv. bet the flop and probably take it from there. I like the c/c flop line if you flat call PF.

Turn is probably a c/f. I don't mind the c/c c/f line, sometimes even c/c c/c c/f line. But in this case, if villan bets this turn, we'll still have tons of pressure on us, and AK just got there (not limiting villan's range to AK, but its certainly a possibility). This turn card sucks alot.