5/10 HU flop troubles

[BKiCe]

PokerStars Game #8755481885: Omaha Pot Limit ($5/$10) - 2007/03/05 - 18:09:13 (ET)
Table 'Peitho V' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: BKiCe ($1078 in chips)
Seat 5: Kjalnot ($1080 in chips)
Kjalnot: posts small blind $5
BKiCe: posts big blind $10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to BKiCe [Td 7d Ac 9c]
Kjalnot: raises $20 to $30
BKiCe: raises $60 to $90
Kjalnot: calls $60
*** FLOP *** [5s 3c Qc]
BKiCe: bets $140
Kjalnot: raises $450 to $590
BKiCe ???

this is more of a general question, i find myself in spots like this often when i three bet preflop heads up... what's the best line to take here? should i think about checking flop? it just seems like i get blown off so many draws in hands like this where i reraise preflop, flop a draw, get reraised where i feel i have no fold equity but at the same time aren't quite priced in. villain and i just started playing so i don't have much in the way of reads.

[BKiCe]

lol thanks friends... too boring/mundane a hand?

[JackInDaCrak]

3-betting OOP when HU in PLO is asking for trouble.

[CrushinFelt]

I don't think many people have a lot of HU experience. The experience I do have makes me agree with Jack about 3-betting OOP. Also, c/c here makes your hand a little transparent, so it's not like I think you should check this flop 100% of the time.

Getting a feel for what type of hand he is willing to raise with on the flop is the most important piece of information. Have you been 3-betting like this a lot? It comes down to almost 90% meta-game because your action here depends on what you thin he puts you on with your 3-bet (i.e. if you rarely do this he may be putting you on AA and you can maybe safely assume he has two-pair or better or a big draw).

When I rail the top games (where the most HU PLO happens) I see people getting it in with just a nut flush draw a lot just because applying pressure in this game is so important and worst case you're about a 2:1 dog (also if someone is pushing with a warp + FD their FD outs are no good against you and neither are some of their str8 outs).

[Silent A]

If you had a gut shot or a pair to go with the nut flush I'd say push it back, no problem. Here though, villain only has $400 left in what would be a $2160 pot, so he's not folding anything.

You need 0.384 equity to push. You're 50/50 vs a random hand 44/56 vs a random Q (but no QQ). In fact, just about the only hand you should fold to is a set (28/72). But you're so far behind a set and so borderline against everything else that it's pretty close here. A lot depends on how aggressive this player is with his raises and what his button pre-flop raising standards are.

The nice thing about pushing here is that you send a message and you might learn a lot about how he plays.

I lean towards push and pray to the poker gods for a club.

[BKiCe]

i found your comments very interesting silent A, about sending a message and learning how he plays... i think that's pretty important here, shoving with a naked flush draw sends the message that i'm not afraid to get it in with the worst of it which will have all sorts of positive metagame implications for me i believe.

i ended up folding because i felt i had no fold equity and not much to go with my NFD but after some thought i realized i could probably make a good argument for shoving here to send villain a message.

i'm pretty new to shorthanded plo but i definitely understand the critical importance of position so i think i should probably stop three-betting so light... thanks very much for your comments and i would appreciate any other advice or insight anyone could provide.

[grizy]

I prefer folding here... pushing to send a message sounds interesting but in my experience, a lot of players will bail after you send them the message you'll gamble with the worst of it. Some people just don't want the variance or have the balls for it.

The stack sizes are a bit awkward relative to the pot to make a push profitable, especially since all but your ace is smaller than a Q and you don't have much backdoor straight potential.

Running the risk of sounding like Troll_Inc, I'd rather pick a better spot, especially since if I lose, I'd have to win an all in and a bt more to get my money back. It's very unlikely the metagame value of pushing here is worth that much.

Also, position, in my opinion, is only secondary to stack sizes as to why your 3-bet preflop was bad. As this hand demonstrates, once you 3 bet like that preflop on a regular basis, it becoimes a push fest on the flop and the HU session becomes a game of chicken where the players are going "I think I hit the flop bigger than you, what are you goign to do about it?" There is no skill here... and frankly this is not the best way for the better player (which should be you, or you should be changing tables) to make the most money.

[Silent A]

The meta game doesn't have to be worth that much since there's a good chance you're at least 35% against his range. It's a major high variance gambool play either way.

Of course, I agree with griz that the meta value assumes he's not going to bail on you or if you don't have any resaon to believe you'll ever see him again.

If you have any reason to think he'll leave and if you think you're better than him heads up then you can make a tourney like argument that it's better to pass on a marginal play for your stack now if you're sure you'll get +EV later.

[grizy]

it's just after a lot of heads up sessions, I have come to realize once you double someone up, they tend to leave before you get all of your money back. This is true in any form of poker I've played. LHE, NLHE, HORSE, PLO, PLO/8, LO8... Withotu exception, if you give away a big pot, fishies want to leave before they give up all their winnings.

[BKiCe]

[ QUOTE ]
it's just after a lot of heads up sessions, I have come to realize once you double someone up, they tend to leave before you get all of your money back. This is true in any form of poker I've played. LHE, NLHE, HORSE, PLO, PLO/8, LO8... Withotu exception, if you give away a big pot, fishies want to leave before they give up all their winnings.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not sure about plo but i definitely have not found this to be the case at 5/10 heads up nlhe... the vast majority of the time, anyone who buys in for a full buyin that game isn't leaving just becasue they double up. shortstacks, yes, but not people buying in for 100 bbs.