AKs, 200bbs, 4bet pot vs a regular

[Rotterdaum]

The thing is, there was no 4 betting history with a villain but I thought about 20% of his range could be a random hand he's playing back at me with... I thought the 4 bet was smallish for a real hand.

Basically if his range is QQ, KK, AA, AK, random hand, and he's possibly calling a push with anything but the random hand ... can calling be better than pushing or folding?

[steel108]

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I want to see if people can make a case for a raise, or a fold on the flop or a fold on turn ...

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I haven't played with you for a very long time, but I remember that you were very aggresive and got under people's skin. If you raise, even if your frustrating me, I'm not calling with an underpair on the flop. Folding the turn makes sense depending on the card. In this case, the 10 changed nothing. Do you think your good here? I think you are good enough based on the action to call this.

[cs3]

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Well, first it's AKs, second, calling with 22 or 78s preflop is beyond horrible, are you serious?

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ya, i know, its terrible. but
my point is that i hate calling PF because his range is so narrow that we are very likely to be dominated. if flop came K33 are you stacking off?
and when we miss we have almost no fold equity.

[Rotterdaum]

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

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I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

[steel108]

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

[/ QUOTE ]

What does he have that is beating us that makes sense? Only A-A and I think that's seeing monsters under the bed. J-J is hard bc I don't see 20/15 doing this unless they are frustrated and steaming, especially when deep. Make your read and go with it. I don't think anyone can fault you for folding or calling here; it's pretty close. I just prefer calling based on what I said earlier. Results?

[aislephive]

I think shoving pf this deep is pretty bad. 4 bets by solid players are AA/KK/AK/bluffs the majority of the time. Your typical 2p2er knows that 4 betting JJ/QQ is not a good play, especially this deep. I'm not sure how crazy I am about calling here preflop either, but I suppose it's a viable option.

On the flop, it's a pretty standard shove I think. If he is bluffing, he would have to be retarded to even think about bluffing the turn. If he is bluffing he might have up to 4 outs, and it would be a shame to lose to a turned set/gutshot or something 200bbs deep when there was no reason to just call to induce a bluff since there is no way he is going to bluff the turn unimproved anyways.

Basically, if he has you beat on the flop you're going to go broke anyhow. If he has like some random hand like 33/44 or KQ or some bs he will shut down 99% of the time unimproved, so all you are doing by calling is giving him a card to outdraw you in a massive pot.

Cliff notes:

1.Shove flop
2.????
3. Profit

[J. Stew]

i don't think he 4-bets and folds to a push ever considering your read so far, so if we think we're ahead of his range i.e. he's 4-betting somewhat light and will call a push with these, we'd like to see five cards, so a push is better than a call imo.

[cs3]

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as played i would fold the turn. you called a PF 4-bet so he knows youre in the uppermost part of your range, and then you show even more strength by calling his flop bet.
it looks like he puts you on exactly AK and doesnt think you will fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think this is an interesting line of thought. Sure AK got all it needed, but you basically need him to be bluffing a very large % of the time to call the turn, and is that really imaginable?

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no, im saying he cant ever expect you to fold the turn after you call the flop, so hes almost never bluffing.
and i thinkk even if villain has AK he checks that turn. it would be much better for him to give you a shot to bluff (however unlikely that is) than to push into youre possible AA or JJ, right? becasue even if you check behind he would still be able to easily get all in on the river
so folding turn is correct.

or did i misunderstand you?

[Kermit]

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I don't see 20/15 doing this unless they are frustrated or steaming.

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Well, that not always true. I run at about 20/15 and when the stacks get deep, I will four bet with more than AA/KK/AKs. In fact, I would be MORE inclined to four bet someone like Rot. This is b/c I already know his three bet range preflop is wide, probably even more so now that the stacks are deeper. Also, against a solid/thinking player, lets be serious, you are going to get a fold almost everytime unless he has AA/KK/AKs---assuming there is no four bet history.

[Rotterdaum]

I like aislephive's post ... maybe i'm being resultist here but a push on flop sounds good.

I called the flop and the turn. He had 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ....

and the river was a Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

go figure