NL Bots on Full Tilt

[RikaKazak]

I would just like to add, that player "Plasphemy" on tilt plays JUST LIKE the other 3.

Anyone with more info please pm me, obviously tilt isn't going to do anything, time for the players to take appropriate steps. (like a massive play and delay on their tables)

[AlanF1]

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Wow, after almost 2 weeks of reading every single post, I'm finally caught up. Quite an accomplishment. I feel like I should be climaxing right now.

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Its posts like this that are the reason why it takes two weeks to read threads like these.

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And posts like this one?

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and like that one

[bxb]

The fact that FT took action in the case of the HU limit bot but not this one in interesting. Somehow there was a lot of evidence in that case and not very much in this one.

[bobbyi]

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The fact that FT took action in the case of the HU limit bot but not this one in interesting. Somehow there was a lot of evidence in that case and not very much in this one.

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Either that, or the judgments of FTP are completely random.

[ilya]

I think sites need to just openly let people use bots. Why not? Doing this would change the game, but it would not remove skill or make it unfair. If anything, it would make the game even more skill-based, while fostering potentially useful AI research. And the change wouldn't be that radical anyway -- online poker aspires to botness/cyborgness in many ways already. You could argue that allowing bots would not be anything more than the logical extension of allowing programs like PokerTracker and PAHUD and of allowing players to use formulaic strategies they find in books and forums.
As Alobar and others have pointed out, sites really don't have much of an incentive to eliminate bots, and it's unlikely they ever will. So why bother trying to fight a lost battle. If people still want to play against other humans, they can go to the casino or create a private table online with their friends.

i'm not saying that doing this would make good business/political sense for any poker site in the current climate, just that i wish the climate would become more open to this.

[NFuego20]

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I would just like to add, that player "Plasphemy" on tilt plays JUST LIKE the other 3.

Anyone with more info please pm me, obviously tilt isn't going to do anything, time for the players to take appropriate steps. (like a massive play and delay on their tables)

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A lot of players have tight/aggressive styles. But to say Plasphemy plays "just like" the other three is probably not an accurate statement. I'm sure if you saw his stats in detail you'd see major differences. I don't datamine so I can't say for sure. But I'm sure SukitTrebek had plenty of information on Plasphemy and was able to see significant differences in his play vs. the others. If I had to guess I'd say the continuation betting % alone is probably way different. That being said, just because three players had nearly identical stats doesn't mean there can't be lone bots out there operating on their own with no adequate point of comparison.

In any case I'm pretty sure Plasphemy has posted in this thread previously. He certainly never has played the volume of hands as the other players in question from what I can tell. Maybe PM him if you're concerned.

[NFuego20]

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I think sites need to just openly let people use bots. Why not? Doing this would change the game, but it would not remove skill or make it unfair. If anything, it would make the game even more skill-based, while fostering potentially useful AI research. And the change wouldn't be that radical anyway -- online poker aspires to botness/cyborgness in many ways already. You could argue that allowing bots would not be anything more than the logical extension of allowing programs like PokerTracker and PAHUD and of allowing players to use formulaic strategies they find in books and forums.
As Alobar and others have pointed out, sites really don't have much of an incentive to eliminate bots, and it's unlikely they ever will. So why bother trying to fight a lost battle. If people still want to play against other humans, they can go to the casino or create a private table online with their friends.

i'm not saying that doing this would make good business/political sense for any poker site in the current climate, just that i wish the climate would become more open to this.

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I just couldn't disagree more with this post. One thing that's pretty clear right now is that the vast majority of players we're up against are in fact human. They tilt, they make mistakes, they mix up their play, etc, regardless of the information they may be able to get from Pokertracker. They get tired. They can't play all day long without breaks and if they do there will probably be consequences in terms of profitablity.

Opening the door to just allow bots to overrun the tables would be a mistake that could destroy online poker for good. It would take the game to the level of being no fun at all for casual players, as the incentive for a beginner to play in that environment would be pretty low. The game would change to the point where the person who could produce the most profitable bot could just sell it for financial gain numerous times to many people. If advanced enough, even good players may not have a chance. If a computer program can beat the best chess players in the world, how can you tell me they can't do the same thing with poker? Once we reach that point, it's over.

I for one do not have that many friends with poker accounts where I could set up private tables with them. Even if I did, I could never multi-table the way I do now nor could I be as profitable. On top of that, some of us don't live in a location where live games are much of an option. I'd personally have to drive at least two hours if I wanted to play in a legitimate cardroom.

If people want to create a big AI experiment, then a site should be created devoted to developing and using bots to play poker exclusively against each other. In that case everybody knows what's going on and at least it's a level playing field. But posts like these are really discouraging because I just think some people really underestimate how this can damage the game. There is a huge difference between using poker aids that keep statistics on opponents and being 100% automated. And if you disagree with that, I'd still argue that the poker aid programs would need to go instead of just allowing anybody to use bots on the tables.

[ilya]

NFuego20, I think you're right that the games would become less profitable for the human player who doesn't want to use bots, but to me that's not necessarily a deal-breaker. Those who adapt well and build good bots will thrive. Yes they will have to make a substantial time investment to learn the necessary programming/math skills, but once they've built their bot they won't have to spend hours grinding at a computer every day and will instead be free to do something more fun/productive with their time. Their new programming skills will probably be more directly transferable than an old-school player's skills. And in the process of building the bot, they will have to figure out how to play pretty well, so they can go crush live while their bots win online.
I fully expect bots to become better than the very best human players at all forms of poker within the next ten years, but I don't think this will kill online poker. The competition will just move to a different plane. If someone "solves" poker and forces everyone to use the same exact bot, well then, yeah, online poker will die. But that's different and probably won't happen as quickly, if ever.
Those who simply enjoy playing poker but don't have lots of online friends or a casino nearby would still be able to get their kicks in play-money games.

[NFuego20]

I guess at that point nobody is playing poker any more. They're just taking up a different hobby of programming. I really think this would be a disaster. Hopefully, no matter how much of an uphill battle it may be, we keep the bots out of the online game. I have no desire to build bots. I just enjoy playing the game and am fortunate to profit at it currently.

[frinxor]

http://forum.winholdem.net/wbb/viewtopic.php?t=11477