Player fails to protect his action

[Mano]

Single table home tourney. I am fairly short stacked in middle position and push first in, there is a quick succession of folds, the small and big blind fold, the chips are pushed my way and I gather them up and toss in my hand, at which point the button looks up and says "I haven't folded", and indeed he has two cards which were shielded by his hands. It is a friendly home game, with many novices (the villian here is not a total newb, but I am fairly sure this is an honest mistake on his part), so I say whatever, pull my cards back and put the chips back in and let him call and play the hand out (he has about half as many chips as I do, and ends up winning a race with pocket twos, but that really doesn't matter). I am pretty sure I would be in the right here if I had put up a stink, and said there was significant action past him and he failed to protect his action so I should get the pot. Anyone disagree?

[psandman]

I disagree for one significant reason. At this point it was apparently possible for you to pull back your cards and play your cards no harm no foul (you describe the folding as a quick succession so I am assuming that even if he spoke up quicker it wouldn't have been in time to keep BB from folding OOT.

Now if your cards were now irretrievably mixed in the muck and the hand could not continue I would award you the pot because it would be unfair for you to lose simply because the player failed to speak up. But as it is, it appears he spoke up in time to protect his action.

[Mano]

[ QUOTE ]
I disagree for one significant reason. At this point it was apparently possible for you to pull back your cards and play your cards no harm no foul (you describe the folding as a quick succession so I am assuming that even if he spoke up quicker it wouldn't have been in time to keep BB from folding OOT.

Now if your cards were now irretrievably mixed in the muck and the hand could not continue I would award you the pot because it would be unfair for you to lose simply because the player failed to speak up. But as it is, it appears he spoke up in time to protect his action.

[/ QUOTE ]

The big blind actually did ponder a few seconds before folding, and the pot was pushed and stacked before he spoke up. I think he was just looking down considering what to do. As I said, it is a friendly game, and I am the host and did not want to cause any bad feelings. I actually wasn't certain which cards were mine, but reached out and grabbed the two cards on top nearest me and they were my cards. I always let technicalities slide - but I try to point out things to the other players that they would get penalized for in a casino, as I am the most experienced player there, and I don't want these guys to have to learn the hard way if and when they play in a casino.

Note:
I don't take any money for hosting, it actually costs me to have the game once or twice a month because I always provide drinks and snacks - other players bring some drinks and snacks as they see fit - but it is all friends or friends of friends and pretty insignificant stakes and we always have a good time.

[WhiteKnight]

[ QUOTE ]
Note:
I don't take any money for hosting, it actually costs me to have the game once or twice a month because I always provide drinks and snacks - other players bring some drinks and snacks as they see fit - but it is all friends or friends of friends and pretty insignificant stakes and we always have a good time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Irrelevant to the topic of discussion.

[H0neyM0nster]

Only OP can really answer...Is this player likely to have waited to see if he was going to be HU with you or alternatively 2 or 3 others in the pot (ie the Blinds)? I bet he was sitting there with his ducks thinking...'Christ. I wanted to go all-in and he beat me to it. Should I call? If only I knew what SB and BB were going to do....hang on SB has folded...brilliant...and so has BB....I'm in a 50/50 race now....'

My suspicious mind can't help think that he took advantage of the situation (ie SB and BB not paying attention and you not watching the action like a hawk)...I'd probably say something to him along those lines. But, as the most experienced player there and especially with your all-in in the middle of the table you should be making sure that everyone acts in turn.

Maybe it was an honest mistake. Whatever the answer, don't let it ruin a fun home game.

[cardshark]

[ QUOTE ]
...there is a quick succession of folds, the small and big blind fold, the chips are pushed my way and I gather them up and toss in my hand, at which point the button looks up and says "I haven't folded", and indeed he has two cards which were shielded by his hands... ...so I... pull my cards back and put the chips back in and let him call and play the hand out

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to work as a poker dealer (in a casino) and I just want to say what the rule is.

If you muck your cards, your cards have to stay in the muck. You cannot pull them back under any circumstances.

The logic is that you are responsible for paying attention to what is happening around the table. So, the reasoning is that it was your own fault if you didn't realize there was a player with a live hand. So, by official rules, you would not be allowed to take your cards back and continue to play.

The problem with home games is that people always take liberties and let technicalities go by. The bigger problem is that the ruling (in home games) is not necessarily the same every time the same situation occurs.

Poker is not a partnership game. Every player is in for himself and every player is responsible for his own action.

There is another official rule that might make your blood boil, but I just want to state it because it is somewhat related to your situation.

If you were playing this game in a casino, and if the dealer thought that everyone folded, and if the dealer mucked your hand without you making any indication at all that you were going to muck, your hand would still be dead. This would be the case even if you knew that there was still one player with cards and even if you were going to say something about it.

The reasoning behind this official rule is that every player is responsible for protecting his own hand, and it doesn't matter if the dealer absentmindedly mucked a player's hand. That is your hand, and you have to protect it. That is a harsh rule, I know, but I just want to say what the rule is, just to emphasize that there is no way you can ever retrieve your folded hand.

The best thing to do, really, if you host games is to have an official rule book on hand and to let everyone know that your games are played by the rules. Just get a copy of The Professional Poker Dealer’s Handbook and study it for yourself. Then let everyone know that you will make every ruling according to what this book says, so that no one can accuse you of favoritism.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
I used to work as a poker dealer (in a casino) and I just want to say what the rule is.

If you muck your cards, your cards have to stay in the muck. You cannot pull them back under any circumstances.

[/ QUOTE ]

That may be the rule in the room you worked at. But that is not the rule in well run card rooms.

[Khabbi]

I don't understand your argument using the "player did not protect his action" rule and awarding yourself the pot.

If anyone didn't protect their own action here, it was you.

It doesn't matter where the pot was going, a player still had a hand, that was the dealer's mistake. Your mistake was not protecting your hand. Your cards as you described them were irretreivable so you should have lost the hand.

This was pre-flop action you described, did you think the button had folded? You tried to rob a pot and as the host you should always cut yourself absolutely zero slack. If it were one of the newbs, then yeah, maybe let this go. You can't be giving yourself the benefit of the doubt in marginal situations. Your hand was dead, it should have stayed that way.

[Khabbi]

[ QUOTE ]
but I try to point out things to the other players that they would get penalized for in a casino, as I am the most experienced player there, and I don't want these guys to have to learn the hard way if and when they play in a casino.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hand should be dead and the pot awarded to the button. If you're going to point out a rules infraction you'd best hold yourself to it.

[DavidNB]

At a friiendly home game, yes pull back the crad and play the hand out. SLap the other guy on the wrists for covering his cards, a big no no. Cards should be in plain view to prevent things like this from happeing. The same thing happened to me after the flop. We retrived the cards frommthe muck and played the hand out. Cards can be retrived from the muck in certain cases.