limit 5CD: Would you even consider not capping with a full house here?

[THEjDonk]

CO seemed a little too loose.

I had played with SB for a while, and think he was playing a little tight and somewhat passive. He was constantly folding from SB when I had BB earlier in the session.

My first impression of BB was that he was tight and probably a little passive, but he hadn't played a significant amount of hands (maybe three orbits).


Limit 5 Card Draw ($1/$2) (converter)

SB ($22), Seat 3
BB ($41), Seat 5
Hero ($43.25), Seat 6
CO ($53), Seat 1
Button ($13.75), Seat 2

SB posts $0.50. BB posts $1.

Hero is UTG with [Jd 8h Th 8c Tc]

Round 1: (1.50 SB)

<font color="red">Hero raises. </font><font color="green">CO calls. </font><font color="#666666">Button folds. </font><font color="green">SB calls. </font><font color="red">BB raises. </font><font color="green">Hero calls. </font><font color="green">CO calls. </font><font color="green">SB calls. </font>
SB takes 1. BB takes 1. Hero discards Jd. CO takes 3.

Hero has [8h Th 8c Tc 8d]

Round 2: (6.00 BB)

<font color="green">SB checks. </font><font color="red">BB bets. </font><font color="red">Hero raises. </font><font color="#666666">CO folds. </font><font color="red">SB raises. </font><font color="green">BB calls. </font><font color="green">Hero calls. </font>

Pot: (15.00 BB - $30)

When SB check-reraised, I really put him on a full house. I didn't think that he would call from the SB with a draw in this situation (but maybe it's wrong to assume that a generally tight player doesn't necessarily play draws when he shouldn't). Maybe it was the check-reraise that paralyzed me, but I really thought that he probably had a bigger full house than me.

What would you have done in this particular situation?


Incidentally, I did see SB play a little loose/passive in an earlier hand when he limped and called a raise with QQ against my 777. He did raise when he made quads after the draw. I think I would have considered folding those trips if I had the same reads as I got later in the session, because he seemed very conservative.

[Murakawa]

I would always cap with this hand.

[2461Badugi]

Yeah, cap this. BB's dead money makes it worthwhile even if we can put SB solidly on a full.

[bigpooch]

First of all, the BB DID NOT cap it, so he doesn't have your
hand beat [If he did, he should cap it.] and may even have
something like a small full house that started off as trips
(not everyone draws two to small/medium trips from his spot)
or aces up or kings up. He is also likely to call just one
more bet on the end since he called two bets cold on the end
already.

Thus, you only need to have the best hand on the end just
over 1/3 of the time since I believe the pot won't get raked
any further due to the extra three big bets on the end.
[You expect your opponents to put in two of the bets and you
only have to put in one.]

Second, the small blind has at least a complete hand, so you
may have to ask yourself what his minimum 3-betting hand
would be, given how he plays. If you think his worst check
reraising hand is 22233, then capping is clearly best, since
with 888TT, you are even favored to have the best boat!

You discarded a jack, so there are only about 1/4 as many
jacks full hands. [The CO is likely to have a pair which is
at least a pair of eights and it's very unlikely to be tens
or jacks, and likely to be KK.] It looks as if the big
blind started with two pairs such as queens up/kings up or
aces up (maybe even jacks up or nines-up, but that isn't as
likely), so there aren't too many full houses that the small
blind can end up with that are bigger than eights full.

If you don't think the SB will reraise with less then sevens
full, then you have a crying call and not a cap. If you
think he would only cap with sixes full or better,
surprisingly, you have a technically correct cap, as you
beat also sevens full, and there aren't the full four ranks
of full houses (on average) bigger than eightsfull: assume
the BB has one rank covered and the CO has the other, plus
you've seen a jack go by.

Also, if there is any chance the SB is making a big mistake
such as checkreraising with less than a full house, you have
an easy cap. On the other hand, if I were the small blind,
and even had your hand, I wouldn't 3-bet it and would simply
hope for an overcall. To 3-bet from the SB "correctly", he
needs more than just a small boat, and technically even a
hand such as 99922 is insufficient, but these are $1-2
players: they make many mistakes such as calling on the end
with trips in multiway pots that are raised on the end.

[THEjDonk]

SB did only have an ace-high flush. I initially assumed that BB overplayed trips, but he didn't show.

When I saw the results, I realized that I should probably have capped against anyone (except if I know that SB plays approximately as suggested by bigpooch):

[ QUOTE ]
To 3-bet from the SB "correctly", he
needs more than just a small boat, and technically even a
hand such as 99922 is insufficient

[/ QUOTE ]

BTW: Do you assume that I would never have a made come hand here when you determine the 3-betting requirements for SB? Incidentally, I was not in the mood to open-raise with come hands because I had lost way too much to calling stations earlier in the session.

The reasons that I didn't cap was probably partly that I ran out of time before I could consider what kind of hands SB and the other players had, and partly that I sometimes give my opponents too much credit. I thought SB had been playing conservatively earlier, but that doesn't mean that he knows that a small full house or a flush isn't good enough to reraise with in the aforementioned hand.

[Big Limpin]

yes, two things:

- SB does not necessarily have a full here (a nit who plays bad isn't that uncommon), and if he DOES, its got a real good chance of losing to 8s full.

-Its alot safer to be putting the 4th bet than the 3rd bet. The idea is that if you are reopening the betting, you will get thundered for 2 bets when he has the monster. When you are capping though, even if you're beat, it wont cost you more than the single bet. IN a HU situation, you'd need to have the best hand &gt;~60% to make the bet worthwhile, while if its the cap bet, you are only needing to beat him &gt;50% (assuming he's calling, which he surely will). Conceptually, its simialer for this 3handed situation. If you cap it with NOT the best hand, you lose 1 bet, not 2.

I cap here 100% I'd expect the pot to slide to me. If i cap and lose, i'd have no regrets. A bet won spends the same as a bet saved.