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  #1  
Old 11-06-2007, 06:05 AM
TNixon TNixon is offline
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Default My biggest leak: stupidity NLTRN

I feel like I'm getting pretty good at really narrowing people's hands down, and especially identifying when I'm beat, which is something I've historically been extremely poor at.

However, I'm absolutely HORRIBLE at actually folding when my opponent is telling me I'm beat, and my instincts say he's telling the truth.

Like when I have J9s OOP, call a raise, check-raise a 9 high flop against an opponent who cbets somewhere close to 100%, he calls, an ace comes on the turn, and I am SOOO confident he called the check-raise with just ace-broadway that I check, but still call pot on the turn and river, "knowing" he caught the ace, and lose a big pot OOP when he shows me AQ.

Or when I've caught TPTK, bet pot on the flop and the turn against a major calling station who check/calls, the river pairs the bottom pair on the board (which happens to be a 2), and he bets pot. I'm absolutely disgusted, because I *know* he just caught trips, but I make the call anyway.

Or take this one for example:

Full Tilt Poker, $50 + $2.50 NL Hold'em Sit n' Go, 10/20 Blinds, 2 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

Hero (SB): 1,460
BB: 1,540

Pre-Flop: (30) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (SB)
<font color="red">Hero raises to 60</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to 100</font>, Hero calls 40

Flop: (200) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 133</font>, BB calls 133

Turn: (466) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [ 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ] (2 Players)
BB checks, <font color="red">Hero bets 233</font>, <font color="red">BB raises to 666</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to 1,227 and is All-In</font>, BB calls 561

River: (2,920) 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] [ 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] ] (2 Players - 1 is All-In)

Results: 2,920 Pot
Hero showed 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a full house, Eights full of Nines) and LOST (-1,460 NET)
BB showed A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (a full house, Eights full of Aces) and WON 2,920 (+1,460 NET)

After the raise on the turn, there was no question in my mind that he had an overpair. I mean, he even raised exactly to 666 for hell's sake.

But instead of saving those 1200 chips, against somebody I have kicked the crap out of numerous times over the past few days (winning this one would have made it 5 for 5), I dump em all into a pot against a hand that I'm pretty sure has me drawing to 2 outs.

I don't *think* I'm being results oriented here, picking out cases where I was beat as examples of spots where maybe I should have folded. In all three of these cases (and numerous others), I was beat, but in each case, I was pretty confident I knew where my opponent was at, to the point that I really felt like I could have pegged my opponent almost to two specific cards, but I called anyway.

And I really don't think I'm having a bout of monster-under-the-bed syndrome, either, causing me to *always* feel like I'm beat. I don't always just assume I'm beat when my opponent bets like I am, and I feel like I'm getting better all the time at catching on to the subtle differences that make it possible to be fairly sure one way or the other. Even if I don't consciously or explicitly know exactly what those things are, my reads are getting more correct all the time. (And I made some super-sick-perfect reads at our home game this past weekend that were so good they made me a little bit giddy. Too bad I wasn't actually in the hand for most of them)

Of course, if I weren't making these calls, I wouldn't get to see the pace at which my reads are improving, so maybe it's not a completely horrible thing that I'm going through an ATM phase (well, technically it's not a phase...I've always been an ATM in these situations, I'm just now starting to realize I'm ATMing *before* I put the chips in), but my winrate at $50s ranges somewhere in the neighborhood of 56-58%, and I just know that if I could get over this one hopelessly retarded behavior, I could shoot over 60%, easy.

So for the sake of all that is good and right in the universe, PLZ HALPMEH B NOT 2 MUCH MORE DUM
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  #2  
Old 11-06-2007, 09:50 AM
PerDoom PerDoom is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

I really hate betting the turn there unless you know villain will stack off with AT-AK there. Just check and hope he does something dumb with overcards on the river.
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  #3  
Old 11-06-2007, 10:34 AM
ok2aa ok2aa is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

i had the same problem like OP. 1st you should just take your hand away from the mouse when your are playing a big pot. (no more snapcalling ftw)

imo the problem has a lot to do with your ego. you gotta learn how to leave it out of your game. i know it's hard to fold when you feel like he sucked out on you bigtime but its the right thing to do and makes you money.
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  #4  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:18 PM
Vinetou Vinetou is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

I have the same problem. It is just that sometimes I am so angry that he sucked out that I don't care about the money and pay off.
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  #5  
Old 11-06-2007, 12:24 PM
Vinetou Vinetou is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

just to see you are not the only who can't find a fold button
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  #6  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:18 PM
shyturtle27 shyturtle27 is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

I pay off all the time when I know I'm beat and villian sucked out. It's all about ego and you have to get rid of it. The take your hand off the mouse tip works. Pokey did an article in micro stakes NL long ago titled "WAIT!". It just advises you to take time with EVERY decision and not only will you see you are beat, but it could give you that extra two seconds you need to convince yourself to fold.
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  #7  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:31 PM
Vinetou Vinetou is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

[ QUOTE ]
I pay off all the time when I know I'm beat and villian sucked out. It's all about ego and you have to get rid of it. The take your hand off the mouse tip works. Pokey did an article in micro stakes NL long ago titled "WAIT!". It just advises you to take time with EVERY decision and not only will you see you are beat, but it could give you that extra two seconds you need to convince yourself to fold.

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes even thinking doesn't help. You remember that hand when Daniel Negreanu flopped the nuts on High stakes poker, and Erick Lindgren made four of a kind and he moved in on the river? Daniel couldn't beat anything. He thought for a long time, but he couldn't fold even against such a big nit as Erick. It is something like that with me also sometimes.

And TNixon, it is not called stupidity, it is called steaming.

I think it also has something to do with the mentality that you don't care for losing. I have that mentality sometimes, when money just doesn't mean anything and I don't care if I lose more because I am so used to losing. It is called tilt.
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  #8  
Old 11-06-2007, 01:54 PM
Landonfan Landonfan is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

I call just to give myself an excuse to get pissed off. "See, SEE?! I told you I always get sucked out on."

Feels good when you're right, though [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]
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  #9  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:13 PM
tmcdmck tmcdmck is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

my lord i sympathise. I go one worse, and call when i know i am beat just to spite their stupid play (even though calling is obvious what they want). eurgh.
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  #10  
Old 11-06-2007, 02:18 PM
ChicagoRy ChicagoRy is offline
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Default Re: My biggest leak: stupidity

I remember when I first was able to start identifying when I was beat and was holding a pretty strong hand.

The first few times I really thought I was beat I talked myself out of folding hands like two pair or top par and said "No way, that's too perfect, he can't really have this that % of the time, I call" and I was wrong.

Gotta be able to fold trips and stack off with 22 as 6th pair.
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