Taj 5k, baby flush facing overbet reraise

[pzhon]

This was from my first live tournament, a slow 73 player $5k+150 event this past weekend.

Blinds 75-150. Average stack size is about 10% above the initial 10k buy-in.

CO (~13000?) seems loose, and picked up his chips by snapping off a blind-steal and then 3-barrel bluff with a mediocre hand in the blinds vs. a clearly overly-aggressive player.

SB (~7000) is listening to an MP3 player and seems experienced but out-of-depth. In an earlier multiway pot, he checked twice with flopped trips (very coordinated low board), turned quads, and then made a small value bet, a line I thought was hideous. I don't know how he lost 3k chips.

Hero is BB (~11000). Hasn't played many hands, and hasn't shown down any.

Hero is dealt 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Preflop (9-handed):
CO open-limps, Button folds, SB completes, Hero checks.

Flop (3-handed, 450): K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
SB bets 200, Hero calls (?), Button raises to 1500, SB pushes all in for about 6700 on top of his 200, Hero ...?

There are three options. What's right, and how much difference do you think there is between the play you favor and the alternatives?

[Cornell Fiji]

Fold >> Push >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Call

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold >> Push >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>Call

[/ QUOTE ]
Thanks, that sort of ordering is what I'd like to see, but I'd also like to see some reasoning. Why do you think there is such a huge difference between calling and pushing? The only difference can come if the CO wants to get involved, and with many of the hands where he would, all of the money will go in regardless. So, I don't think there can be a large difference between pushing and calling.

[Cornell Fiji]

Warning... completelty incoherent ramblings below. I just tried to think this one out loud and I got a whole lot of nothing.

pzhon,
I actually think that this is a very interesting hand and I am surprised that no one else has chimed in.

To be perfectly honest, my last post was a little bit of a cop out. I thought that push and fold are really close so I added call in there because it was the only choice that I was sure of. Rereading the hand I think this is a definite call though because there is just an enormous range of hands that the SB could be pushing with

The reason why we gotta just stick it all in there (if we don't fold) is because the CO has correct odds to call with the naked A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] on the flop so we might as well charge him in full. He also could have a straight that will go away if another club falls or he could have a pair and an OESFD that we want to tie him to the pot with.

Also, what is your plan if you call and he calls and another club hits? What if the board pairs? The pot is WAY too big for us to allow ourselves to make a bad fold therefore if we want to play pushing is the only option.

Looking back at the hand I think that I actually like a push over a fold.

I think that it is very likely that the SB has J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] although he also could have a hand like T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] or maybe even a smaller flush than ours (or a bigger one)... We know that the BB doesn't have the nut flush because his overbet just doesn't make any sense.

The problem is we have no idea what the CO has either. Since he limped preflop he could be the one with J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or he might have A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].... Or maybe even the K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]....


I have no idea man... their ranges are just enormous.

Rereading this hand I actually think that it is a definite call bc the SB could be pushing with the straight or an OESFD... or he could have a hand that has us drawing dead.

At the table I think that I would just go by my read

[Bond18]

This is a great hand to post man, and a really tough spot IMO. Cornell has made a nice response here and i think the key part is where he says

"I have no idea man...their ranges are just enormous."

And really thats the issue. Their ranges are wide enough, that while yea sometimes we're gonna run straight into a bigger flush i think theres enough hands in there that we beat that its positive EV to put our chips in the middle. Your flop call of 200 could be anything, so i don't really think these guys are that worried about you, and this board is semi bluff city, not to mention "protect my two pair" city so yea, put it in and pray.

[Cornell Fiji]

I can't believe that no one else has sounded off on this post. I think that it is a really interesting hand.

The more I think about this hand the easier I think this push becomes.

I really can't imagine the SB being bad enough to push with the nuts here (well 2nd nuts because of straight flush possibilities... but I dont think he is pushing that either)

Also, the fact that the hero has the 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with three big clubs on board makes it less likely that the villain has a bigger flush.

If we rule out the Ace high flush because he wouldn't be pushing that then try to think of his possible hands... Is he calling with J7s in the SB? with J2s? T4s? although possible these seem unlikely.

Therefore only hand that really makes sense for him to have that also beats us is 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].

It is much more likely that he has a pair and a draw, a straight, or even a lower flush, than it is that he has the one hand that has you dominated.

This is actually an easy push.


Push>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>&g t;Fold>>>>>Call

I would have had trouble with this one at the table but looking back I think that its a pretty easy call... just have to hope that CO doesn't have the nuts [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[betgo]

I would be worried that two players are betting so strongly on a 3-flush board. However, this board is so likely to give someone a straight, set, 2-pair, or nut flush draw that it may be a call. Also, there are not that many higher clubs left.

[tippy]

Why didn't you raise the flop rather than calling the SB's 200 bet? Seems if you would have put in a healthy raise here to define your hand, you could have learned quite a bit more about Buttons hand given his reaction to your raise. Doing so would have kept you out of this difficult fold/push situation. If I'm sitting with the buttons hand and I see a small 200 bet, and a 200 call my first thought is maybe the first bettor has a hand, but maybe hero has a draw (Ace spades?)therefore maybe button is trying to protect some hand (2pr maybe?)

Just seems to me you could have made your future course of action a little easier with a raise on the flop.

What exactly were you trying to accomplish with a call on the flop? Induce action?

[billyjex]

I like your thought process Cornell, and I'd have to shove it in here as well.

[Cornell Fiji]

[ QUOTE ]
I like your thought process Cornell, and I'd have to shove it in here as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks,
It took me 2 posts to get to the right decission and 3 posts to prove it but I think that I definitely finally got this one right.

OP,
Thanks for posting this hand. I think I might have made a bad play and folded in the heat of battle but now, after thinking it over, I am not going to make that mistake if it comes to me again.

I think that this is the first time in the past 1,000 posts that I have made that I am going to request results. Iam actually quite curious about the results in this one (mainly I am wondering if the SB had AJ/J9 which is what I am now putting him on) so please PM me what happened or post them here when the discussion dies down.

I hope you pushed and no one improved to beat you!

-Steve