100/200 A4o on the button

[ILOVEPOKER929]

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This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

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Against the typical player, If I 3bet the flop and check the turn, it is almost always with the intention of calling the river assuming the turn and the river are relatively blank cards. So yes I am paying off the river very often If I take this line against the typical player. If im against an unknown/typical, more often than not I am taking the call flop, call turn re-evaluate river sequence. Basically the same idea as this statement:

Cartman's words: "In my opinion the best line is to use your gutshot as an escort to the river and then make your decision of whether to call or fold based on your assessment of his likelihood to both have a busted draw and fire three barrels with it given the turn and river cards."

For example: If we call the flop checkraise, and the turn is a Queen, and the villain bets again, and we call again, and the river is a Jack, notice that these are essentially two blank cards. What this means is all straight draws missed. If we assume the villain has a range close to mine, we are still roughly only a 3-1 underdog to have the best hand on the river. However, once the villain bets the river, naturally our underdog status changes for the worse, but my point is we should still be more inclined to call the river when the turn and river blanks off like this.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

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It probably depends on the texture of the turn card. If it's a dangerous card like an 8 or a 7, I assume it's a defensive, let's-see-a-showdown check and I would probably not bluff if I was playing well. If it was something like a J, I'd find that really curious and might go ahead and bluff.

[skp]

With the gut shot in addition to the Ace out, I think the best play here is to keep your foot on the gas and 3 bet. You can reconsider what to do on the turn but if the turn is a paint, I bet again and hope to get yet another (different) paint on the river in which case I bluff again.

It's pretty difficult for the bb to call the river with a 5 or even an 8 when the board is 258JQ and you have bet every street (although ironically, I suspect that most guys would be more willing to call your river bet with Ace high than with 98 - I don't quite know why that phenomeneon occurs. I digress but it may have something to do with their thinking on the turn call - when they call with an 8 on teh turn, they are hoping to improve and are not psycholgically commiteed to a showdon but when they call with ace high, they are indeed psychologically committing themselves to a showdown whether or not they improve).

Without the gutshot draw on the flop, I think that any of the lines you have indicated are reasonably close and you should just mix it up. That other chap that James complimented had a very good post.

[The Funky Llama]

in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

[Mig]

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in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

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Then why are the players at this stakes so often bluffing bad turn/river with stuff like A high or 5th pair if they know that nobody ever fold a 5 or 8 in that game ...

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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in what games do people fold a 5 or an 8 here? Surely no online games I've ever played in.

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Then why are the players at this stakes so often bluffing bad turn/river with stuff like A high or 5th pair if they know that nobody ever fold a 5 or 8 in that game ...

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Why are some people here making tens of thousands of dollars from these games? Same reason.

[Mig]

Well I'm not sure you will turn a profit calling the river with a pair of 5 when a good preflop raiser is 3 barreling a turned J and rivered Q. I'm sure, there is more good players than you think that are folding their pair of 5 on the river when the turn comes J and river comes Q vs a good player who is 3 barreling.

[Nate tha\\\' Great]

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Well I'm not sure you will turn a profit calling the river with a pair of 5 when a good preflop raiser is 3 barreling a turned J and rivered Q. I'm sure, there is more good players than you think that are folding their pair of 5 on the river when the turn comes J and river comes Q vs a good player who is 3 barreling.

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Oh, I don't disagree. Figuring out when to fire that 3rd barrel is a skill I haven't really mastered yet; there are times when I do fire and feel like an idiot for having done so, and there are times when the cards get flipped over and I'm almost sure that I could have won the hand with a follow-thru.

[The Funky Llama]

I am not saying there are not good players who can make that fold. I am just saying that these good players probably are like 3% of the player pool. I also agree with Nate. Most people bluff waaaay too much considering that nobody folds anything ever. And the over aggression in these games makes these sort of calldowns a marginal mistake at worst.

EDIT: I guess I should say that I've played less than 10k hands at 100/200 so I guess it is possible that my comments don't apply to this limit. But with my limited experience at 100/200 and my extensive experience at 20/40 - 50/100 , I stand by my statements.

[James282]

I'm fairly sure bluffing A high is a losing play if the board winds up to be 358JQ, but I think a convincing argument could be made for bluffing K high there.
-James