100/200 A4o on the button

[Paluka]

Alright I'm sorry I wasn't really having a bad day I was jsut busy at work and didn't realize how much of a prick I was in that post. I apoligize.
I stand by my opinion that while his post was lengthy, it didn't really do much but state the obvious.
I realize this is a fairly typical hand, but when I face a typical situation and I'm still not sure what my best line is, that leaves me with 2 options:

1) The lines I can take are very close, and I should liekly just do something reasonable, vary my play, and adjust to this particular opponent.

2) One line is actually usually better than the others, and maybe someone on the boards can help me realize this.

[Paluka]

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"If he has (a), there's no point in raising at all, since you want him to keep firing."

Hero has no pair either; why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

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This is a point I'm concerned about too.

[Paluka]

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You will essentially never make him fold a better hand, so any further aggression on your part is very likely a mistake. The size of the board makes the credibility of a flop 3-bet near zero. In my opinion the best line is to use your gutshot as an escort to the river and then make your decision of whether to call or fold based on your assessment of his likelihood to both have a busted draw and fire three barrels with it given the turn and river cards.

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You don't think a free card play has any merit? Too obvious?

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]
why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

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He won't catch it cheaply as long as he keeps betting.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why should he let his opponent catch a pair to beat him cheaply?

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He won't catch it cheaply as long as he keeps betting.

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We also have to worry that our opponent with no pair has a better ace than us. I agree making a pair fold in this spot is tough, but how often can we make a better ace fold?

[ILOVEPOKER929]

Just for the fun of it, lets play a game. Lets assume I am the villain in the BB. Lets also assume that if I had 77-AA, I would 3bet preflop even though many times I will call with these hands in this spot.

When I checkraise that flop here is my total range:

22,A2,K2s,Q2s,55,A5,53s,54s,65s,75s,85s,Q5s,K5,86s ,87,98,T8,J8,Q8,K8,A8,66,76,43s,64s,97s,96s,74s,A3 . Lets also say I would checkraise the flop with T9s if I had a backdoor flush draw. I also ignored those times we have the same hand with A4.

Once I checkraise the flop you are an 3.1-1 underdog against my range. What this means is you atleast have to get to the river, how you should get to the river is certainly up for debate and I know thats the major topic of this thread. If I were playing against myself, I would probably take the boring line of call the flop checkraise, call the turn, and fold the river. I will now explain why I would fold the river against me.

Here are the 4 common showdown lines you can take here:

1) 3bet flop, bet turn, check river
2) 3bet flop, check turn, call river
3) call flop, call turn, call river
4) call flop, raise turn, check river

I would take none of these lines against myself becuz I would not feel a need to showdown against me. The reason this is so is becuz if a good player is still in this hand by the river, I will not bluff even close to the theoretically optimal frequency in this spot becuz I dont think the good player will be folding very often at this point. This is a very dry board, and if the good player is still in the hand on the river I will assume he is showing down very often. So this means no matter which line the hero takes, If I bet the river, the hero can fold knowing he doesnt have a profitable call.

So none of those 4 showdown lines should be taken against me. Line #4 should only be taken if the hero thinks he has some FE from better hands. Since im a fish, line #4 is bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Although I began this post by saying that against me I would call the flop, call the turn and fold the river. I guess it turns out that this is not the optimal line against me. I suppose 3betting the flop, checking the turn and folding to a river bet would be the best line. Against me this is probably the optimal line becuz If a good player takes this line against me on this dry board, I again will assume hes showing down, which means I will not bluff the river at an optimal rate.

[cartman]

[ QUOTE ]

We also have to worry that our opponent with no pair has a better ace than us. I agree making a pair fold in this spot is tough, but how often can we make a better ace fold?

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In my opinion we make a better Ace fold almost never. My point is that--after his checkraise--we have way the worst of it if more than one bet per street goes in unless we improve. Retaking the initiative:

1) Opens us up to punishment from better hands and those that are currently worse but pass us

2) Gains us nothing when he has a worse hand unless he won't fire three barrels with it

3) Exposes us to the risk of getting knocked off of the best hand if he shows further aggression with a draw unless we are willing to make an expensive calldown

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
If he has (b), then most opponents are folding no matter what, so there's no point in raising unless you hit your A. 3-betting the flop is an option, but only if you're committed to getting to showdown and you think it'll buy you a free card, which often it won't in the 1/2 game, at least on Party.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not sure it is actually true that you should only 3 bet the flop if you are committed to a showdown.

[Paluka]

[ QUOTE ]
Just for the fun of it, lets play a game. Lets assume I am the villain in the BB. Lets also assume that if I had 77-AA, I would 3bet preflop even though many times I will call with these hands in this spot.

When I checkraise that flop here is my total range:

22,A2,K2s,Q2s,55,A5,53s,54s,65s,75s,85s,Q5s,K5,86s ,87,98,T8,J8,Q8,K8,A8,66,76,43s,64s,97s,96s,74s,A3 . Lets also say I would checkraise the flop with T9s if I had a backdoor flush draw. I also ignored those times we have the same hand with A4.

Once I checkraise the flop you are an 3.1-1 underdog against my range. What this means is you atleast have to get to the river, how you should get to the river is certainly up for debate and I know thats the major topic of this thread. If I were playing against myself, I would probably take the boring line of call the flop checkraise, call the turn, and fold the river. I will now explain why I would fold the river against me.

Here are the 4 common showdown lines you can take here:

1) 3bet flop, bet turn, check river
2) 3bet flop, check turn, call river
3) call flop, call turn, call river
4) call flop, raise turn, check river

I would take none of these lines against myself becuz I would not feel a need to showdown against me. The reason this is so is becuz if a good player is still in this hand by the river, I will not bluff even close to the theoretically optimal frequency in this spot becuz I dont think the good player will be folding very often at this point. This is a very dry board, and if the good player is still in the hand on the river I will assume he is showing down very often. So this means no matter which line the hero takes, If I bet the river, the hero can fold knowing he doesnt have a profitable call.

So none of those 4 showdown lines should be taken against me. Line #4 should only be taken if the hero thinks he has some FE from better hands. Since im a fish, line #4 is bad [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Although I began this post by saying that against me I would call the flop, call the turn and fold the river. I guess it turns out that this is not the optimal line against me. I suppose 3betting the flop, checking the turn and folding to a river bet would be the best line. Against me this is probably the optimal line becuz If a good player takes this line against me on this dry board, I again will assume hes showing down, which means I will not bluff the river at an optimal rate.

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This is the kind of post I was looking for. But against typical players, don't you feel that the turn check induces a bluff from busted straight draw type hands and you should consider paying off river? Does that then make you want to change your strategy on the previous streets?

[James282]

Ilovepoker,

That was an insanely good post. While most of it seems obvious, it gives away way too much info as to how to play spots like this vs. decent players. If people study that post, they will likely be able to play about a thousand times better in blind situations.
-James