Should we abide by unjust laws?

[AdamL]

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I dunno, the basic problem I have is he needs a moral authority. That could be his pastor, the state, or God. How do I explain to him why I don't think an outside moral authority has any more validity than my own moral code?

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Everyone follows their own moral code including him. His moral code just happens to be that he should obey the law, presumably he considers that its better to obey bad laws then to break them.

chez

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That's a brilliant way of putting it.

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It's a dull way of putting it an it evades the question. What is a "moral code" and why does your friend think the laws are important enough to respect? Should they be? What is the correct way to deal with unjust laws? Regimes? Men? What about the fact that he thinks morality is important enough to guide his life, instead of his desires? What is the significance of the idea that one needs to be master over one's self? What about moderation vs. eros?

The questions aren't answered at all. It amounts to saying nothing. It's also false - not everyone follows their own moral code. Christianity will even tell you that we won't and can't, but can only try our best.

[chezlaw]

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It's also false - not everyone follows their own moral code. Christianity will even tell you that we won't and can't, but can only try our best.

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Its what some of them claim but its false. Everyone, even NotReady and Hitler, are stuck with their moral codes.

Edit: if you just mean that we all sometimes do things we believe to be wrong (i.e. against our own moral code) then its true but really dull.

chez

[chezlaw]

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I dunno, the basic problem I have is he needs a moral authority. That could be his pastor, the state, or God. How do I explain to him why I don't think an outside moral authority has any more validity than my own moral code?


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Everyone follows their own moral code including him. His moral code just happens to be that he should obey the law, presumably he considers that its better to obey bad laws then to break them.

chez


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That's a brilliant way of putting it.


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It's a dull way of putting it an it evades the question. What is a "moral code" and why does your friend think the laws are important enough to respect? Should they be? What is the correct way to deal with unjust laws? Regimes? Men? What about the fact that he thinks morality is important enough to guide his life, instead of his desires? What is the significance of the idea that one needs to be master over one's self? What about moderation vs. eros?

The questions aren't answered at all. It amounts to saying nothing.

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It answers the question that was asked. Admitedly it was a dull question generated by someone (not the op) who hadn't thought about what he was claiming.

chez

[Taraz]

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If you break the law, you will eventually be outside of it's protection. That is one point to keep in mind, in the long run. Respecting the law regardless of your standing as a citizen is extremely important.

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I don't agree that breaking the law sets you outside of its protection. Could you elaborate on that? I jaywalk all the time and speed on the freeway from time to time, but I'm still pretty confident that that law protects me from a lot of things.

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Your friend is a fine person, you're very lucky to know someone like that. Take care of him.

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True, he's a great guy. I would like to think that I'm also a great guy though [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img].

[Taraz]

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It's a dull way of putting it an it evades the question. What is a "moral code" and why does your friend think the laws are important enough to respect? Should they be? What is the correct way to deal with unjust laws? Regimes? Men? What about the fact that he thinks morality is important enough to guide his life, instead of his desires? What is the significance of the idea that one needs to be master over one's self? What about moderation vs. eros?

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You raise a lot of points here. I think it was a good way of phrasing the situation. A moral code is simply an internal system that tells you what is right and wrong. His
morality tells him that all laws must be respected and followed. I agree that we should respect all laws, but I realize that some laws have been made into political issues and don't carry much validity. I will not go around flagrantly breaking any laws, but if I believe that I'm doing nobody harm and there is no way my actions can impact another person I will consider breaking a law.

I kind of take offense at your statement that he lets morality guide his life and not his desires. This seems to be implying that somehow I am an amoral person who bends his beliefs at a whim. This couldn't be farther from the truth. I let my morality guide my life, but my morality and his morality don't coincide. I am also willing to change my moral code if I'm presented with evidence that my thinking is flawed. I'm afraid that he doesn't reflect on his beliefs enough to change them. What if he holds a mistaken view?

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The questions aren't answered at all. It amounts to saying nothing. It's also false - not everyone follows their own moral code. Christianity will even tell you that we won't and can't, but can only try our best.

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Presumably your moral code is to follow whatever Christianity tells you. Just because you've adopted a singular outside moral code doesn't mean that it isn't yours.

[AdamL]

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I don't agree that breaking the law sets you outside of its protection. Could you elaborate on that? I jaywalk all the time and speed on the freeway from time to time, but I'm still pretty confident that that law protects me from a lot of things.

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Haven't you noticed that many other people as well jaywalk and speed on the freeway? To the degree that one person breaks the law others are likely to follow suit, don't you think?

[AdamL]

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A moral code is simply an internal system that tells you what is right and wrong.

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What is right and wrong then?

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His
morality tells him that all laws must be respected and followed.

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Yes -

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I agree that we should respect all laws, but I realize that some laws have been made into political issues and don't carry much validity.

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i.e., you are aware that there is such a dilemma as whether it is right or wrong to obey unjust laws, and have an opinion based on who knows what. So does he, right? It just is a different opinion. He thinks it is more important for the law to be respected above personal judgement - he thinks it has authority. You don't break laws because either you agree with them, or you fear the consequences. He doesn't break laws because they are laws, and laws should be respected. I don't know him personally but don't assume such people are foolishly obeying silly laws. There is a whole process of reasoning associated with lawful convictions which you haven't shown any understanding of yet. Do you think ceremonies are foolish? Or what about laws such as those requiring a citizen to stand for national anthems, or attend school until a certain age?

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I kind of take offense at your statement that he lets morality guide his life and not his desires.

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I'd advise you not do do that, no offense is there. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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This seems to be implying that somehow I am an amoral person who bends his beliefs at a whim.

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It doesn't do that, you're seeing phantoms. I gather anyone asking questions like "Should we abide by unjust laws" has a moral character. Criminals don't ask for permission or for speeches.

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Presumably your moral code is to follow whatever Christianity tells you. Just because you've adopted a singular outside moral code doesn't mean that it isn't yours.

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Wrong presumption, firstly. The second sentence doesn't make sense to me.

[Taraz]

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I don't agree that breaking the law sets you outside of its protection. Could you elaborate on that? I jaywalk all the time and speed on the freeway from time to time, but I'm still pretty confident that that law protects me from a lot of things.

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Haven't you noticed that many other people as well jaywalk and speed on the freeway? To the degree that one person breaks the law others are likely to follow suit, don't you think?

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But how does this "set me outside of the law's protection"?

[Taraz]

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A moral code is simply an internal system that tells you what is right and wrong.

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What is right and wrong then?

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Depends on the situation [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. "Do unto others . . ." and all that. I don't think any singular act is always right or always wrong.

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I agree that we should respect all laws, but I realize that some laws have been made into political issues and don't carry much validity.

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i.e., you are aware that there is such a dilemma as whether it is right or wrong to obey unjust laws, and have an opinion based on who knows what. So does he, right? It just is a different opinion. He thinks it is more important for the law to be respected above personal judgement - he thinks it has authority. You don't break laws because either you agree with them, or you fear the consequences. He doesn't break laws because they are laws, and laws should be respected. I don't know him personally but don't assume such people are foolishly obeying silly laws. There is a whole process of reasoning associated with lawful convictions which you haven't shown any understanding of yet. Do you think ceremonies are foolish? Or what about laws such as those requiring a citizen to stand for national anthems, or attend school until a certain age?

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Shouldn't we try to understand the spirit of the law though? Can't we try to determine the purpose of the law and hold to that higher purpose? To go back to the drinking example, he is a very responsible person. One would assume that the drinking age is in place so that minors don't go out of control and pose a danger to themselves. I doubt having a sip of alcohol 6 months before his 21st birthday would have been all that bad for him or anyone else. I just don't see any justification for that other than "the law says so".

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Presumably your moral code is to follow whatever Christianity tells you. Just because you've adopted a singular outside moral code doesn't mean that it isn't yours.

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Wrong presumption, firstly. The second sentence doesn't make sense to me.

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What I meant is that you either formulate your own rules or you adopt some outside rules. But either way, at some point they become your rules. I guess I would argue that I look at the laws and try to understand them and apply them where they seem rational. I don't think everything is black and white.

[AdamL]

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how does this "set me outside of the law's protection"?

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Through spreading an attitude about the law that must erode it. No you won't magically be outside protection immediately, but that's not what you should care about most really imo.

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Depends on the situation.

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Is there also a right and wrong that is not dependant on a situation? Or is there an idea of right and wrong which is the thing checked on for guidance in each situation, to come to the "right" choice?

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I don't think any singular act is always right or always wrong.

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Not any singular act at all? You mean you can't think of any singular act that can ever be said "is always right"? What about that children ought to be treated justly? Or a woman should never be murdered by her husband?

Or maybe you mean that multiple actions are required to produce a "right action"? I don't understand.

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Shouldn't we try to understand the spirit of the law though?

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Definitely. But you asked if we should abide by unjust laws. I was trying to introduce you to the huge dialogue that it leads to. You didn't say "is jaywalking bad for my friend?" or "is drinking before your 21st birthday bad for me?" That issue of the laws and politics and the question of justice is more interesting.

As for morality and self, rules becoming mine, I think rather the moral law owns me than vice versa. It was around before me and will be around long after I'm gone