Should we abide by unjust laws?

[Taraz]

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I dunno, the basic problem I have is he needs a moral authority. That could be his pastor, the state, or God. How do I explain to him why I don't think an outside moral authority has any more validity than my own moral code?

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Everyone follows their own moral code including him. His moral code just happens to be that he should obey the law, presumably he considers that its better to obey bad laws then to break them.

chez

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That's a brilliant way of putting it.

[bkholdem]

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I dunno, the basic problem I have is he needs a moral authority. That could be his pastor, the state, or God. How do I explain to him why I don't think an outside moral authority has any more validity than my own moral code?

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Everyone follows their own moral code including him. His moral code just happens to be that he should obey the law, presumably he considers that its better to obey bad laws then to break them.

chez

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That's a brilliant way of putting it.

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Out of curiousity, How does he deal with the paradox when laws from God conflict with laws from man? It seems to me that it would be hyppoctritical to obey almost all laws except for a select few that his religion tell him are wrong, and not use his religious beliefs to determine right from wrong otherwise.

What are so special about man made laws in which no one is harmed (or only consenting adults are involved) when they are broken? Does he have a well thought out philosophy in how he submits to man made laws or is he following beliefs that were indoctrinated into him?

[Taraz]

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Out of curiousity, How does he deal with the paradox when laws from God conflict with laws from man? It seems to me that it would be hyppoctritical to obey almost all laws except for a select few that his religion tell him are wrong, and not use his religious beliefs to determine right from wrong otherwise.

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Can you give me an example of such a law?

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What are so special about man made laws in which no one is harmed (or only consenting adults are involved) when they are broken? Does he have a well thought out philosophy in how he submits to man made laws or is he following beliefs that were indoctrinated into him?

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I think he just trusts authority. I think he says, "I'm sure there is a good reason for X."

He definitely does not have a well thought out philosophy about these things because every time I asked him a tough question he says he had to "ask his pastor" about it.

[bkholdem]

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Out of curiousity, How does he deal with the paradox when laws from God conflict with laws from man? It seems to me that it would be hyppoctritical to obey almost all laws except for a select few that his religion tell him are wrong, and not use his religious beliefs to determine right from wrong otherwise.

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Can you give me an example of such a law?



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It might be difficult for me to come up with an example that pertains to his actual behavior, but it will be easier to find examples where his 'beliefs' will be in conflict.

In MA it is my understanding that gay marriage has just been upheld. Therefore it is 'legal'. Does he support this now that it is 'legal' or do his 'moral beliefs' supercede his using the law as a guide to what his right and what is wrong?

Since abortion is legal he has no qualms about it or does he get a moral guide from somewhere other than 'the law' that he uses to determine right from wrong?

[almostbusto]

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Since abortion is legal he has no qualms about it or does he get a moral guide from somewhere other than 'the law' that he uses to determine right from wrong?

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this is a pretty silly question right? of course someone who isn't ok with abortion shouldn't change his/her mind if the law states its acceptable.

its legal to be a porn star, or a prostitute in nevada. If your mother/daughter/sister decided to become a porn star and/or prostitute would you be ok with it, on moral grounds? Maybe so, maybe not, but the answer to the question would have little to do with the legality of the act for the vast majority of people. at least that is my thinking.

[bkholdem]

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Since abortion is legal he has no qualms about it or does he get a moral guide from somewhere other than 'the law' that he uses to determine right from wrong?

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this is a pretty silly question right? of course someone who isn't ok with abortion shouldn't change his/her mind if the law states its acceptable.

its legal to be a porn star, or a prostitute in nevada. If your mother/daughter/sister decided to become a porn star and/or prostitute would you be ok with it, on moral grounds? Maybe so, maybe not, but the answer to the question would have little to do with the legality of the act for the vast majority of people. at least that is my thinking.

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So then you would agree that people do not determine what is 'right' and what is 'wrong' based on what the prevailing law of the day is, correct?

Just because something is legal that does not make it 'right' and just because something is illegal that does not make it 'wrong'. Agree or disagree?

Does the law supercede your moral code of right and wrong or vice versa?

[Taraz]

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Out of curiousity, How does he deal with the paradox when laws from God conflict with laws from man? It seems to me that it would be hyppoctritical to obey almost all laws except for a select few that his religion tell him are wrong, and not use his religious beliefs to determine right from wrong otherwise.

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Can you give me an example of such a law?



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It might be difficult for me to come up with an example that pertains to his actual behavior, but it will be easier to find examples where his 'beliefs' will be in conflict.

In MA it is my understanding that gay marriage has just been upheld. Therefore it is 'legal'. Does he support this now that it is 'legal' or do his 'moral beliefs' supercede his using the law as a guide to what his right and what is wrong?

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I think he would actually be fine with gay marriage. He doesn't believe that he has the authority to tell people what to do or what not to do in his private life. But I do suspect that he himself wouldn't get married if he happened to be gay and it happened to be against the law.

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Since abortion is legal he has no qualms about it or does he get a moral guide from somewhere other than 'the law' that he uses to determine right from wrong?

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He would say that it's not his place to legislate, but that you should respect the prevailing laws in your region. If the majority of people are against something and it becomes illegal, I think he would stop doing it even if he saw nothing morally wrong with it.

Basically he has a certain moral code as a Christian, but he doesn't believe he should tell others how to act, and he does believe that you should follow the laws of where you live.

[bkholdem]

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Out of curiousity, How does he deal with the paradox when laws from God conflict with laws from man? It seems to me that it would be hyppoctritical to obey almost all laws except for a select few that his religion tell him are wrong, and not use his religious beliefs to determine right from wrong otherwise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Can you give me an example of such a law?



[/ QUOTE ]

It might be difficult for me to come up with an example that pertains to his actual behavior, but it will be easier to find examples where his 'beliefs' will be in conflict.

In MA it is my understanding that gay marriage has just been upheld. Therefore it is 'legal'. Does he support this now that it is 'legal' or do his 'moral beliefs' supercede his using the law as a guide to what his right and what is wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think he would actually be fine with gay marriage. He doesn't believe that he has the authority to tell people what to do or what not to do in his private life. But I do suspect that he himself wouldn't get married if he happened to be gay and it happened to be against the law.

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Since abortion is legal he has no qualms about it or does he get a moral guide from somewhere other than 'the law' that he uses to determine right from wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

He would say that it's not his place to legislate, but that you should respect the prevailing laws in your region. If the majority of people are against something and it becomes illegal, I think he would stop doing it even if he saw nothing morally wrong with it.

Basically he has a certain moral code as a Christian, but he doesn't believe he should tell others how to act, and he does believe that you should follow the laws of where you live.

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What does he say about civil disobedience?

What would his response be if you argued that the making of (some/many) laws are a scheme to collect revenue since the government has a territorial monopoly and doesn't have any competition? What is his response when someone argues that victimless crimes are unjust?

[reup]

I think his point rings true because there was a specific reason to set up those laws. If you want to adjust the laws you must go through 'the system' and weed out the outdated reasoning that was used. Otherwise what you do is subject to whatever you want to do, which is fine if you're perfect, but not if you're not.

Subconsciously you are probably already aware of any outdated reasoning, as he may be too, and just ignore it when it registers as a BS law. He takes a different path. Where you intuit and act accordingly, he follows the rules and needs tangible justification for a sense of certainty.

Why the difference? Upbringing, hard-wired personality traits, if there is such a thing?

[AdamL]

If you break the law, you will eventually be outside of it's protection. That is one point to keep in mind, in the long run. Respecting the law regardless of your standing as a citizen is extremely important.

Your friend is a fine person, you're very lucky to know someone like that. Take care of him.

Read about Justice. Start with The Republic.