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  #11  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:18 PM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

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don't think i've ever disagreed w/ a DD strategy post but I don't like a free sd raise here. You're stopping him from bluffing the river and risking a bluff 3bet with say nut flush draw A9

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.
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  #12  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:20 PM
PokerBob PokerBob is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

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random turn donkers also tend to donk rivers. i prefer calling down.

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yeah. there is nothing more annoying than doing a FSD raise on the turn, and having the guy barrel the river.
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  #13  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:25 PM
private joker private joker is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.

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I don't think so.
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  #14  
Old 11-26-2007, 08:26 PM
DeathDonkey DeathDonkey is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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Yes I think there would be merit in that.

-DeathDonkey

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don't think i've ever disagreed w/ a DD strategy post but I don't like a free sd raise here. You're stopping him from bluffing the river and risking a bluff 3bet with say nut flush draw A9

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Pretty sure DD was referring to checking the flop.

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No I meant the turn. I am generally against most FSDRs for good reasons, but this seems like one of the best places. Live players don't follow through on the river as often as online donk bluffers do, so there is a decent chance he just check/folds his flush draw on the river (because what the heck did we call him with on the turn). On the other hand, we do risk the bluff 3 bet but I again think this is a very rare play to see in a 40 live game. Another downside is we don't fold out any better hands, which sometimes helps a decision for a FSDR if there is a chance to successfully bluff some part of their range. I definitely don't think its crystal clear one way or the other, just that there is merit in considering FSDRing here, as many of the variables seem ideal.

Also given PJ's probable image I think this play improves in value because his turn raise is really strong and I don't think he'll get screwed with by a bluff 3 bet as often as some (me) would.

-DeathDonkey
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  #15  
Old 11-26-2007, 10:13 PM
Sailboats Sailboats is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

Bet the flop.

SB sounds like the type to bet out if he hits a 9 and would c/r a better hand. I think you have to at least call and raise also sounds good given the description of the villian. If he's especially tricky then just follow the safe route and call.
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  #16  
Old 11-26-2007, 10:23 PM
HOWMANY HOWMANY is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

this seems like one of the worst places to fsdr bc i think a lot of our value calling down is coming from random retardo drawing dead donks and not A9 or small pocket pairs.
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  #17  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:40 PM
gaming_mouse gaming_mouse is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

ya i cd. while he might betting his fd, he might also be betting his pp so you can't check behind or so you might fold out of confusion and because he knows he can safely fold to a raise. so calling down gains an extra bet in that case.
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  #18  
Old 11-26-2007, 11:48 PM
*TT* *TT* is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

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Thats what I would do...

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Why? This is a horrible spot for a free SD raise. I don't want to sound like a dick and say "DUCY" but I really do want you to think it out.

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I actually thought some more about this hand and I was fully prepared to argue that a turn FSD was the best option if the board is two suited on the turn. As I started typing it out including weighing his hand range I realized I was wrong. I was weighing the small pair and flush draw range too heavily in my mind when I replied, that was an error IMHO.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2007, 12:59 AM
goofball goofball is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

Just call and give off folding the river tells, then call obviously.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:40 AM
surfdoc surfdoc is offline
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Default Re: 40/80 QQ hand

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I can't remember specifically but the turn might have put a second club on the board -- if this were the case, would there be any merit in raising the turn and taking a free showdown as opposed to calling the turn and river?

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Thats what I would do...

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Why? This is a horrible spot for a free SD raise. I don't want to sound like a dick and say "DUCY" but I really do want you to think it out.

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I actually thought some more about this hand and I was fully prepared to argue that a turn FSD was the best option if the board is two suited on the turn. As I started typing it out including weighing his hand range I realized I was wrong. I was weighing the small pair and flush draw range too heavily in my mind when I replied, that was an error IMHO.

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Well, the crux of the issue is what happens when he has a bluff and what happens when he has a draw. I think the turn donk is usually a result of some type of improvement on the turn which makes a FD very likely. While nobody has been in this spot so many times we know for sure, I disagree with Deathdonkey when he says that live players will often check/fold missed FD on the river. I think random 40s middle easternish guy who donks the turn when a 4 flush hits will usually barrel off on the river.
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