Couple cruiseship blackjack variants - +EV?

[DeathDonkey]

Recently was on a cruiseship and played a bit in the casino when bored. They had two blackjack variants I had never seen before that I wonder if anyone can run a simulation on?

Fun 21: Normal rules + 8 decks, split up to 4 times, double down on anything AT ANY TIME, if you double and don't like your doubling card you can surrender your initial bet and take back your double bet, player 21 beats dealer immediately, player BJ beats dealer BJ, all Q's removed from the deck.

Face up blackjack: Normal rules but dealer's hand is dealt face up, no surrender allowed, can only double on 9, 10, 11, dealer wins on pushes, blackjack pays 1:1

First game I thought was +EV if you make the right basic strategy adjustments - ie: hit on 13 vs a 3 and some other marginal spots where the fact that there are more low cards in the deck will make a big difference. Second game I didn't play but read the rules for, decided fun 21 had better EV.

-DeathDonkey

[Thremp]

the double at anytime with surrender seems huge... Lower BJ frequency so the deck would have a -count inherently.

[Leibniz]

Fun 21 sounds like it's the same game as Spanish 21, except in that they take out the 10s not the Queens.

Both games have a -EV.

I'd recommend visiting the Wizard of Odds site for basic strategy and other information.

[SNOWBALL]

Leibniz,

If you're gonna take up such an awesome name, at least have the courtesy to post more than once every two months!

[Leibniz]

I would post more often, if I could think of anything useful or witty to say. I'll take a page from Abraham Lincoln on this, "Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[Little_Luck]

I was just on a cruise ship with fun 21. I, too, thought it was major EV, however I believe you lose ties or something, which is a huge -EV. I played one of the BJ tournies instead and won 500. Although house takes a nice cut from those, I think, it's still slightly EV due to how horrible others are at a BJ tourney.