Andy B's 4000th Post: The Book Thread to End All Book Threads

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it.

[/ QUOTE ]

So, do you recommend anything that is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP if someone is intent on reading a "beginner's book" first?

[Bill Murphy]

[ QUOTE ]
Some advocate Roy West’s 7 Card Stud: 42 Lessons as a beginner’s book. I cannot agree with this. It is easier to read and understand than 7CS4AP, but there is just too much substandard advice for me to recommend it. To use an example which I have beaten to death, there is a section where he discusses how to play a pair of Kings when someone with an Ace showing raises. If the Kings are split, he advocates folding (which is quite reasonable against many low-limit opponents), but he recommends calling if your Kings are hidden, because of the deceptive value. He goes on to recommend that you fold your Kings on fourth street if you don’t make trips, however. This is a terrible game plan. Assuming that you’re at a full table and your Kings are live, it is 20:1 against your catching trips on fourth street. You aren’t getting anything close to those odds, express, implied, or otherwise. If you are going to fold on fourth street when you don’t make trips, then you should fold on third street.

[/ QUOTE ]

Around the four hour mark. Chau had a monster stack as he'd been catching everything and anything. Chau raises w/an A, I re-raise with K/Kx, Chau calls everybody else folds. One A & K dead. We catch rags, Chau check-raises me on 4th and I fold. Chau nods but doesn't show his hand.

He knocks me out two hours later when I miss my nut flush-gutshot draw, and is quite friendly/respectful when I come back to the tourney area later after dinner.

FWIW despite his huge early stack Chau misses the money, as do Juanda & Chris Grigorian(class guy).

Been awhile since I read Roy's book. Andy's excerpt is just horrendous; I can't defend Roy here(villain may have nut 3flush [img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]? f'instance), but IMO it's still a good book.

[ QUOTE ]
I bought Othmer’s book a few years ago and have tried to read it a few times. It is very dense with lots of charts and numbers and things. It may well contain some worthwhile advice, but I find it difficult to read, and I mostly play hold’em these days anyway.


[/ QUOTE ]

I'm trying to think of a musical equivalent but can't. Othmar's book is a fascinating browse if you have the time. Maybe, um, your friend's stepmom is very hot but 40lbs overweight and there's no threat of discovery... [img]/images/graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

[BeerMoney]

I'm not sure if this belongs in this thread, but someone made a post about this a while ago, and it seems that in 7CSFAP all we ever read about is "Isolate and raise to get it heads up...Isolate and raise to get it heads up....Isolate and raise to get it heads up" I think this is a fair assessment and makes it a challenging read for a lot of players, and does not really give situational advice for many common occurances when playing hands. How many times is it that someone posts a hand, and aside from his 3rd street action can we say "well, look at what 7CSFAP says about this...." The book is 325 pages long, of which the last 135 pages are made up of question and answers, simulations which could be done on 2 dimes.net and a glossary.. The questions and answers are usually nothing more than a copy of what was already written in the chapter which covered the topic.

[Andy B]

Not really. Chip's section in S/S is very good, and it might be an easier read. If you find 7CS4AP that difficult, however, I really don't like your chances of being a winning player.

I haven't gotten the dissenting opinions I was hoping for. Perhaps I have persuaded people that the West book isn't that good after all. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[PokrLikeItsProse]

[ QUOTE ]
Not really. Chip's section in S/S is very good, and it might be an easier read. If you find 7CS4AP that difficult, however, I really don't like your chances of being a winning player.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't find 2+2 books difficult, although I admit that I keep them by the bed because I find it fairly easy to fall asleep reading them. Ideally, I would like to read at least 3-4 books on the subject that disagree with each other and trust in my own ability to figure out for myself which book I want to go with in any given spot, or if I want to strike out on my own. I believe that flawed books do have something to offer, both in allowing me to think about why they are wrong and in allowing me to recognized the motivation behind bad play at the tables.

I am in what I think is a very bizarre spot. I play omaha/8. I followed fishy players over to the stud/8 tables and have put a modest win rate based merely on my understanding of general poker theory, later supplemented by the sections in Super System 2 and Ray Zee's split game book. It has become obvious that I win because I am picking on very bad players, but I have problems when there is no low and it devolves into a high-only game against a decent player.

[mshalen]

Andy I will disagree with you about West's book. The book has recieved a lot of negative comments here so I generally wouldn't bother to bring the book up. Since you asked:

I think most of the comments about problems with West's book come from very experience players. Try putting yourself in the shoes of someone who has been playing holdem and wants to try stud.

When I decided to learn stud (playing in a friends basement as an 11 year old doesn't count) I picked up Zee's book. With little to no experience I could not make heads or tails of what he was talking about. So I went to the book store, saw West's book and despite the comments I had seen here paid for the book.

I found the book to be an excellent INTRODUCTION for someone who wants to get the basic idea of how the game works and some general info on what to do. The book helped get me into the game and kept me out of trouble during the first few months of playing on line. The book is easy to read, short and is very specific on how to play the various starting hands. This is what a BEGINING player is looking for not a "raise to isolate" theory that doesn't really work on the low limits games begining internet players are playing.

Once I gained experience I went back and read Zee. At that point I understood the flows in the game and was ready to learn more advanced concepts. I believe that when people come to this forum and want information of how to learn the game they will be done a disservice by being told to just read Zee. People need an basic introduction to the game not a dissertation on stud theory.

[mshalen]

In responding to my previous post:

From "High Low Split Poker" page 7 :
"Keep in mind this book is for advanced players"

I don't have my copy of 7CSFAP handy (I'm in the office) but I believe there is a similar quote in the introduction.

This FAQ on books needs to address the needs of all players from people asking "should I play stud?" to those experience players who use "Jedi mind tricks" on their opponents. My worry is that beginers will not learn the basics and then suffer fom Fancy Play Syndrome and loose their bankroll.

[greatwhite]

I don't know if you have read this book: How to Beat Low Limit 7 Card Stud Poker by Paul Kammen, but I was thinking about buying it. If you have read please say if there are any flaws. It looks like an easy read and is only 192 pages.

[Andy B]

I haven't read Kammen. I actually saw it for the first time at a bookstore not too long ago. Recently, I've bought HOH2, Big Deal, Greenstein's book, and the Stuey Ungar book, so I wasn't exactly jonesin' to buy another poker book. Moneymaker's book is probably next on my list. The how-to books just aren't as much fun.

Anyway, it seems to me that Mason was less-than-complimentary of Kammen's book.

[greatwhite]

Hmmm...I guess I'll take his word for it. I've never seen it in my local Borders. Does anyone know of any websites where I can find out the content of this book?