Professional No-Limit Holdem SSNL Discussion

[ryanj247]

Just finished reading this, and i'd like to get a discussion going about how to apply the concepts in this book to the games we're playing (primarily online SSNL 6max).

I have a few initial thoughts. I'm interested in discussing these, but i'd also like to hear what everyone else is thinking.

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A good portion of the hands we're playing are the top pair hands with Triskaidekaphobia. With 100BB stacks, our standard 3.5BB opening raise with these hands is likely to get 1-2 callers and that will produce an SPR higher than is comfortable for these types of hands. However, the callers are likely to have similar top-pair type hands. In position, a mid-high SPR like this is perfect for stealing pots from them. In that sense, I feel like SPR explains why 23/20ish with a high c-betting frequency seems to be the sweet spot in our games, and suggests that we're already playing them OK.

That's not necessarily the case, however, for our big pairs. In particular, we likely get ourselves into bad spots with KK far too often. And perhaps some people are setting themselves up for commitment preflop too much with QQ & JJ, hands that don't benefit all that much from that approach.

That said, i really don't see any realistic way to consistently get SPR's down around 4 with AA & KK. 10BB raises are not going to fly.

One way to accomplish this would be to play shortstacked. Doing this would also make it easier to get an SPR of 4 or so pretty often with top pair hands like AK & AQ. But it wouldn't make sense to be raising w/ the intent to steal with the rest of the hands we played. Rather we would just be limping and trying to hit two-pair or better hands with suited connectors, small pairs, and weak top pair hands.

So much of the emphasis of this book is on getting ourselves into easy commitment decisions on the flop. Because of that, i feel like between the lines the book is just screaming that we should be playing with 50BB stacks.

So, does anyone feel this book makes a strong case for transitioning to a "make top pair or better and get your stack in" approach, as opposed to the current "raise in position and steal a lot of pots" approach for SSNL 6max online?

Again, these are just my intitial thoughts. I'm interested to hear everyone's take on the book.


EDIT FROM SUNNY: guys, here are some other PNL-related threads as well....

review thread in Books forum

discussion thread in uNL forum

Full Ring forum thread

[mertzo]

Who wrote it?

[docnuclear]

What s SPR and what is Tiska...phobia ?
Is the book good?

[ryanj247]

lol if you're not familiar with these concepts you may want to read the book which can be found prominently featured at the top of this website:

http://www.twoplustwo.com/

[mertzo]

Matt Flynn, Sunny Mehta, and Ed Miller

ok? so who are those guys?

[fees]

leveled

[ryanj247]

some guys who have just written a book about no limit holdem that discusses some interesting concepts...

anyways, i have a lot of questions after thinking about the book for a while. i'll be interested to hear what everyone here has to say about it when they finish reading it.

[Sunny Mehta]

Ryan,

Good observations - you seem to grasp the crux of the concepts well.

The key to choosing exploitative global strategies for your particular game obviously has a lot to do with the general opponent proclivities. I.e. - how aggressive they are, how tight/loose they are, how much steal equity you have, how much THEY will steal both preflop and postflop, etc.

I don't know your particular game's tendencies well enough to make a super definitive statement, but here are some observations....

$1-$2 online games tend to be much less aggressive than, say, $10-$20 games. IIRC, a stat analysis I did last year showed an average pfr% of like 11 at the 6-max $1-$2 level versus pfr% of 14 at $10-$20. That's a big difference, and both my experience as well as research show that the differences very much extend to postflop play. Lower limit players are simply more passive, while higher limit players are more aggressive and more "gambley".

Obviously though, these are generalizations to a degree, and exact tendencies may be different from site to site, level to level, and even time period to time period - certain things turn "in fashion" for a while and cycles come in and out of phase. Heck, games on certain sites a few months after the legislation were flat-out terrible games.

To get back to your specific question, until lower limit games start approaching the level of tough aggression that higher limit games do, it probably makes more sense *for good players* - if they have to choose - to err their stack size on the side of using it to steal, and just dealing with the tough commitment decisions that may follow overpair hands. It's probably more profitable than tailoring a shorter buy-in purely for commitment with overpair hands. However, it cannot be understated that that presumes the ability to read hands well, pick spots well, NOT TILT/SPEW when stealing, and make correct folds. The key is accurately and honestly assessing your ability wrt those things - which can sometimes be tough for all players.

Thanks for the kind words and the close read. Matt and I will be active all over the 2p2 forums to aid discussion.

-S

[RiverFenix]

I preorder mine. Hopefully it comes soon. I wouldnt mind doing a chapter by chapter discussion.

[Sunny Mehta]

[ QUOTE ]
I preorder mine. Hopefully it comes soon. I wouldnt mind doing a chapter by chapter discussion.

[/ QUOTE ]

RiverFenix,

Awesome. And chapter by chapter would be great, though I think it may take another week or two to get a full-on forum discussion going because really very few people have a copy of the book right now since Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and most other third party vendors are still in the process of getting the book in stock.