KK first hand of ME qualifier on tilt ($300) TROUBLE - Page 2

CTKid · #11 06-20-2007, 01:59 PM

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Just push pf

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hate this. No one is calling with JJ TT and many will fold QQ. You just make it sooo easy for your opponent to play correctly. With stacks this deep I think you played it fine, although if you plan to fold to a push I prefer a flop check once you smooth call pre. By the way I think he could easily have JT here.

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Seriously? He is 3-betting PF with JT? I thought his 3-betting range would be a lot tighter for the first hand of the tournament. More like JJ+,AQs+. Especially given that the OR was in EP. Anyhow, the way I look at it, he is never folding KK+ and probably rarely folding AK, QQ. And sometimes he makes a donkey call with AQ or JJ. I push PF. Just because it is a $300 buy-in doesn't mean the players are any good. Certainly there are satellites into this thing.

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You are 150bb deep. JTs on the button is getting played here a large percentage of the time. This is an auto 3bet for many good players. I'm not saying that's what he has, but 1) its definitely in his range and 2) its a good play.

crankalicious · #12 06-20-2007, 02:02 PM

I seem to recall Sam Farha in a great hand from the 2005 WSOP or 2004 had A-10. Another player had 10-10. Flop came A-A-10. Both went all-in. First hand of that tournament. However, SF's hand was practically a sure thing. So, for some styles of play, it's an easy call. For others, fold, wait, accumulate information. I think both have merits.

BlueEcho · #13 06-20-2007, 02:34 PM

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I think it's a bad play first hand of a tournament, but if that's your style, then so be it. Getting into all-in confrontations early in tournaments is a recipe for leaving early. That being said, my response to this is dictated by the fact that I travel about 45 minutes when I play, so getting up and departing after the first hand is a huge waste of my time. Recently (at a closer tourney), I had AA and QQ first hand. Went all-in both times, got knocked out on bad beats (a gut shot straight and a set). So, if inviting volatility is your style, then I'd go all-in after his raise. If not, I'd fold.

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Well I don't know about this logic. You can't possibly be suggesting that we pass up +ev opportunities be it the 1st and or not?

So let me ask you a question. If you drive 60 mins. to a tourney and on the 1st hand get dealt AA. You raise and someone pushes, you are calling right? Please don't say no.

HojoMofo · #14 06-20-2007, 02:47 PM

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I think it's a bad play first hand of a tournament, but if that's your style, then so be it. Getting into all-in confrontations early in tournaments is a recipe for stacking idiot donks

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FYP

Dawg24 · #15 06-20-2007, 02:52 PM

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Just push pf

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hate this. No one is calling with JJ TT and many will fold QQ. You just make it sooo easy for your opponent to play correctly. With stacks this deep I think you played it fine, although if you plan to fold to a push I prefer a flop check once you smooth call pre. By the way I think he could easily have JT here.

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Seriously? He is 3-betting PF with JT? I thought his 3-betting range would be a lot tighter for the first hand of the tournament. More like JJ+,AQs+. Especially given that the OR was in EP. Anyhow, the way I look at it, he is never folding KK+ and probably rarely folding AK, QQ. And sometimes he makes a donkey call with AQ or JJ. I push PF. Just because it is a $300 buy-in doesn't mean the players are any good. Certainly there are satellites into this thing.

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You are 150bb deep. JTs on the button is getting played here a large percentage of the time. This is an auto 3bet for many good players. I'm not saying that's what he has, but 1) its definitely in his range and 2) its a good play.

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this is a serious question...good players raise 22bb's with J 10 suited? Really? 1st hand of a tourney with no reads and an utg 3x raiser? and 4 players yet to act? I would never put that in the players range but you may be right...especially in a $300 tourney, satelite in or not...

CTKid · #16 06-20-2007, 02:56 PM

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How often do people raise to 22x BB level 1 with JT?

I also push pf, as played fold flop 100% (also check / fold flop is prolly better, IMO the only hand he could feasibly have that you beat on the flop is QQ, barring him being literally insane).

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I really wanted the hand to continue...the only hands I could imagine betting like that where 88+ and Ak so I guess I lead at the pot to see where I am at...I think check fold would have been the better play but I rushed my choice...I just really dont want to be the guy who goes all in on the first hand.

I am pretty sure NO chance of 10 j...maybe QK and flopped str8 but with 22bb raise I find that doubtful.

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okay seriously NO ONE is reraising KQ vs EP raise. JT is obv very different, because you are almost never dominated when called, fold out a ton of better hands, and have good equity vs the top of his range.

crankalicious · #17 06-20-2007, 02:57 PM

Yes, I would at least call. I know this runs counter to what I was saying, but I'd be more likely to go all-in to signal that his KK or QQ or whatever was no good and make him think. I think the fold equity is pretty high in that situation and calling opens up doors.

I think this is all very theoretical obviously. I can't say for certain what I'd do, but I generally try to avoid confrontations for the first two rounds though AA, KK, QQ necessitate aggressive play.

I enjoy thinking about the question though. I think if you can avoid results-oriented thinking, you'd always push.

scotty M · #18 06-20-2007, 04:07 PM

That is a very wierd raise. I really couldn't put him on aces here, so I'd want to get it all in preflop. I wouldn't push though, probably raise to 1k, with the intention of calling any push and pushing any flop, although that flop does make it a tough spot.

binions · #19 06-20-2007, 04:36 PM

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title gives most of the info...I am in small blind with KK blinds are 10 and 20. start with 3000 chips.

UTG raises to 60 and MP3 raises to 440...

folds to me in sb with red KK...I just call...thoughts??

UTG folds...to the flop..T910 in pot

Ah Jh 10s... my thoughts are he was protecting a pocket pair with that over bet and this cant be a good flop for him unless he has (Ak, Aj, A10, JJ, or 10 10) and I have doubts of Aj or A10 with that bet. So I lead out with a bet of 477 to see where I stand...he waits about 2 seconds and goes all in...WTF???

so I think about it and cant come up with much I beat...I am guessing 10 10 or JJ or Ak so I fold even though the pot was offering close to 2-1. I think fold was correct but was it? How close is it?

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Whenever I see someone bet about 1/7th of their stack early in a tournament, I immediately put them on AA or KK. They are trying to take away implied odds of anyone calling with a smaller pocket pair. This very strategy is advocated in Kill Phil. Maybe this player has a wider range for that bet, but AA-KK need to be at the front of your mind when you see this bet and know nothing more about the player.

With KK, I probably cannot fold. I certainly do not push preflop.

When the flop comes AJT, you are done with the hand unless you improve for cheap. The only hand he could have that you are beating is QQ.

Your flop bet accomplished nothing. You could not get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call. You had nothing to protect. And, a free card if he checked behind could give you the nuts if you were behind and he was slowplaying.

chrismystero · #20 06-20-2007, 04:56 PM

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title gives most of the info...I am in small blind with KK blinds are 10 and 20. start with 3000 chips.

UTG raises to 60 and MP3 raises to 440...

folds to me in sb with red KK...I just call...thoughts??

UTG folds...to the flop..T910 in pot

Ah Jh 10s... my thoughts are he was protecting a pocket pair with that over bet and this cant be a good flop for him unless he has (Ak, Aj, A10, JJ, or 10 10) and I have doubts of Aj or A10 with that bet. So I lead out with a bet of 477 to see where I stand...he waits about 2 seconds and goes all in...WTF???

so I think about it and cant come up with much I beat...I am guessing 10 10 or JJ or Ak so I fold even though the pot was offering close to 2-1. I think fold was correct but was it? How close is it?

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Whenever I see someone bet about 1/7th of their stack early in a tournament, I immediately put them on AA or KK. They are trying to take away implied odds of anyone calling with a smaller pocket pair. This very strategy is advocated in Kill Phil. Maybe this player has a wider range for that bet, but AA-KK need to be at the front of your mind when you see this bet and know nothing more about the player.

With KK, I probably cannot fold. I certainly do not push preflop.

When the flop comes AJT, you are done with the hand unless you improve for cheap. The only hand he could have that you are beating is QQ.

Your flop bet accomplished nothing. You could not get a better hand to fold or a worse hand to call. You had nothing to protect. And, a free card if he checked behind could give you the nuts if you were behind and he was slowplaying.

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so your logic is: "since this tournament is deepstacked, i can afford to call off 1/7th of my stack and fold if i THINK ive been outdrawn." That is horrible reasoning IMO. Personally (and seems to be against what a lot of people are saying in this thread), I'm all for pushing preflop when I'm pretty much always ahead. The only hand that beats us is AA, and I think AA is very rarely played like this anyways. So assuming it is not AA (which I dont think it is) your worst case scenerio of pushing is picking up 24 BB's or wutever it is, which I'll certainly take uncontested.