Do you peel this flop?

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
You can't play perfect poker OOP vs. passive idiots. You can try, but you can't. You can't win the max on every hand. I don't think it's a +EV strategy. Sometimes you have to take a pot down.

Also consider the fact that you fold out Tx. Q8?

[/ QUOTE ]

Do we want those hands to fold? Tx is drawing to a chop and Q8 has 3 outs in what will be a 6sb pot when it gets to him...

[danzasmack]

i would say c/c lead has a higher range of hands he can bluff pop us on the turn with, but i was saying with a showdownable hand.

regardless i see your point and somehwat agree.

[Oink]

Pot is 5 SB. 6 if Hero calls. Raising to protect is the last thing on my mind. I doubt hero has eq to make a raise for value.


I never raise in this spot and I need to see convincing evidence of either

a) Hero has eq to raise

or

b) Hero's eq will increase enough by folding out hands behind us that would have called one bet to justify the 1 SB investment.


before I start doing it.

[Tryptamean]

Don't know if this helps the discussion here, but this is the stove calc I got. I think my ranges are kind of screwed up, and BTN most likely wont bet 100% of his range, but it seems like we have a decent equity edge on the flop.

Text results appended to pokerstove.txt

41,957,262,260 games 1145.962 secs 36,613,135 games/sec

Board: Ad Qs Js
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 31.996% 26.71% 05.29% 11206004755 2218741301.92 { QdTh }
Hand 1: 29.808% 25.78% 04.03% 10817213364 1689223060.59 { 66-22, ATs-A2s, K5s+, Q7s+, J8s+, T8s+, 98s, ATo-A7o, K9o+, Q9o+, J9o+ }
Hand 2: 26.465% 22.88% 03.58% 9601274812 1502906690.92 { 88-44, A9s-A2s, K2s+, Q5s+, J7s+, T7s+, 97s+, 87s, ATo-A3o, K7o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T9o }
Hand 3: 11.731% 09.69% 02.04% 4064472280 857425995.58 { 77-22, A7s-A2s, KTs-K2s, Q2s+, J2s+, T2s+, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, A9o-A2o, KTo-K2o, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }

[Tryptamean]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot is 5 SB. 6 if Hero calls. Raising to protect is the last thing on my mind. I doubt hero has eq to make a raise for value.


I never raise in this spot and I need to see convincing evidence of either

a) Hero has eq to raise

or

b) Hero's eq will increase enough by folding out hands behind us that would have called one bet to justify the 1 SB investment.


before I start doing it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think a) is true, but b) is not.

[sebastien]

everybody hate donking flop here?? and why?

[jba]

"equity edge" that only matters if all three are calling which 100% they are not.

[danzasmack]

This game is not played in a vacuum.

See marchinvest's post about 3-betting A6hh when he gets c/r'd on a K62T, 2 hearts board.

You can make this game easier to play. The thing about LHE is that mathematically, it is often tough to do the wrong thing, ESPECIALLY shorthanded where people are capable of GOD KNOWS WHAT. So how do you not play breakeven? You make the game easier.

But hey, if a call works for you then call.

Just if you fold this flop, ship me your account balance. I'll send you what you would have got with your FPPs.

[numbnuts007]

[ QUOTE ]
Personally, I have started to love passive lines a lot. So often its the money line, but you make good points. Maybe I am wrong here.

[/ QUOTE ]

I have really started to love passive lines too, but mostly heads up, I don't think this is the time for it.

[Oink]

I dont fold this flop.


To be honest I dont care about the metagame issues you quoted. We are playing this pot vs open limping retards.


I cant prove that calling > raising and I am certainly listening to your points as I respect your posts a lot. I just cant see why we should raise this marginal hand in a tiny'ish pot.


BTW I often see you advocate a more aggro style that mine. Maybe its just a style thing.. Dunno