NL10 - Overpair deep, best line on flop/turn?

[thehempy]

Villain is 75/12/2 over 75 hands, and me and him have both been very active in the session. I've pushed him off pots a few times, and has run a short buy up to 4 buyins then donked back down to 33 for this hand. Whats my play after the flop 3bet? If I call what do I do on a blank turn card, a turn card that completes draws, a turn card that pairs the board? Cheers.

Seat 1: morror ($17.09)
Seat 2: sepoker ($33.99)
Seat 3: scorphius ($15.01)
Seat 4: ChLamine ($3.00)
Seat 5: ElCristo ($9.27)
Seat 7: hempy ($23.11)
Seat 9: RaZa69 ($3.61)
Seat 10: Tornano ($38.67)
morror posts the small blind of $0.05
sepoker posts the big blind of $0.10
The button is in seat #10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to hempy[Ad Ah]
scorphius folds
ChLamine calls $0.10
ElCristo calls $0.10
hempy raises to $0.55
RaZa69 folds
Tornano folds
morror folds
sepoker calls $0.45
ChLamine calls $0.45
ElCristo calls $0.45
*** FLOP *** [4d 9c Qc]
sepoker bets $0.40
ChLamine folds
ElCristo calls $0.40
hempy raises to $2.75
sepoker raises to $6.55
ElCristo folds
hempy ??????????

[WCGRider]

Sorry man, gotta let go here. ; /

[AlexB182]

[ QUOTE ]
Sorry man, gotta let go here. ; /

[/ QUOTE ]

I think that it's not that easy here, but very very read dependant! The question is, how has he been playing his TP kind of hands and how his big draws?
Think that's the key to your play here and BTW, this is either shove or fold as calling achieves nothing here. You can't hope for a two outer, so you have to make your decision right here.

[WantToLearn]

Did he ever make a strange limp-call with KK?
Might this be AQ?

It´s TWO villains who saw the flop. Really wouldn´t be something unheard of if one of them hit a set.

I guess it really comes down to wether or not you think he might do this to defend against your pushing him off of pots. If so, AQ is possible.

Personaly, I tend to give him some respect and fold here.

[thehempy]

OK this is almost certainly a leak in my play at these levels, in that I find it much harder to give a 75/11/2 respect here, compared to say an 18/11/2. Plus the board is so draw heavy.

The only reason I mention a flatcall is because we're so deep and the board is drawheavy.

I'm at uni so dont have PT but 1 hand I pushed him off earlier from memory, I open AJcc he calls. Flop 854ccs, he leads small i raise, he min3bets, i jam and he tanks before folding.

In this instance I shoved and lost to Q9. More of a general question really, against players with silly stats in VPIP, how much respect should I be giving in spots like this? If the stats are 75/11/0.5 or something, its easy of course. But when its like this case, at what point do I have to start giving respect, and not be thinking that they might be donking off with say QJ?

[WantToLearn]

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In this instance I shoved and lost to Q9.

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If they are that loose, I like to raise really big with AA. With normal stacks, say effective stack size 100 BB, a very loose and donkish player will stack me nearly 100% of the time when my AA makes an overpair and he has two pair or better, but I can let him pay preflop. He´s probalby going to call anyway, so why not make a raise that lets good old maths garantie that his calling with like 44 is a mistake.

[ QUOTE ]
More of a general question really, against players with silly stats in VPIP, how much respect should I be giving in spots like this? If the stats are 75/11/0.5 or something, its easy of course. But when its like this case, at what point do I have to start giving respect, and not be thinking that they might be donking off with say QJ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, it´s a tough spot because of all that bad play you see at NL10.
I strongly lean towards giving them respect when they try to get the money in by-and-by, that is, by making a non-all-in reraise. But it is only recently that I learned that, and learned it the hard way.

Especially, when they are in position and call a c-bet on a drawy board, then if an ugly turn card comes, they min-raise your next bet, they normaly have it. Try to find out wether he wants a call or a fold. And yes, sometimes they want a call with top pair on a double paired flush-like board, as they believe it´s the nuts.

Also: even at NL10, respect the check-raise.

Sad enough, a min-raise on the flop will sometimes be a flush draw as well (note this: I don´t say they should play like that!), so you never know.

In this case, you can´t add chips to your stack, but you can add a player to your buddy list, which might even be better in the long run! [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[oliman]

Firstly his stats are only over 75 hands. I've found that stats can look very wrong over this many hands (although the more active the quicker they look right so might be alright). I'm still trying to figure out at what levels they should be taken seriously (any tips would be greatful). His VPIP here, I would say makes it an easier fold since theres more hands he can have that have u beat. His PFR I would say suggests that he's not gonna be limp calling with KK AQ etc much meaning thats it's unlikely he's playing a lot of the hands that might pay you off. The af is more important and although he's aggressive I don't think it makes it an OK push. If he's seen a few showdowns then maybe %win at SD might help.

This 3bet is not min raise this time. Does he min raise a lot? Seems like he might have it this time.

If uve been pushing him around alot maybe ur gonna get called by more hands but apart from TPGK and TP&FD there's not much else he's calling with that ur beating.

I say fold. Prob 44, 99 or J10cc. With a VPIP like that Q9 and 94 are likely too. Out of interest how many showdowns has he seen and his %win at SD.

[thehempy]

32% seen 30% won.

[oliman]

hmmm, when I asked about %win@SD I was thinking a low % would make a push more possible but thinking about it, it still has to be a fold. With those stats it might make it an easier push when u have hands like 2 pair or bottom set when facing a lot of aggression but I just can't see anyone calling with many hands worse than urs there (saying that at low levels, soo many plays baffle me).

[thehempy]

[ QUOTE ]
(saying that at low levels, soo many plays baffle me).

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This is what I was trying to get at in my earlier posts. Because I see people at these levels doing such stupid nonsense at times (particularly players like the villain in this example) should i...

a) embrace variance and be willing to commit
b) Be a complete nit in these situations