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  #1  
Old 11-01-2007, 07:53 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

This is a pretty drab hand but the same basic hand has happened about 10 times this session between me and this villain. The table is reasonably tight except this guy and one other, and this guy is the reason I'm here - he calls down too much, he sees too many 4ths. He doesn't raise 3rd enough.

So I have been raising him a lot in spots like this, where we are the last 2 good cards showing, whether he completes or calls. His completes are a mix of wheel cards and steal hands, and his calls are medium-to-bad hands (his normal range - edit: I would raise 60% of the hands he limps in this position)

Is it wrong to check 6th here? He will not fold anything that beats me, or anything that has a DRAW to beat me.

Can I call 7th? Since I checked behind on 6th he might not give me credit for even the 8 that I have. However, there have not been many times in this session that he's bet the river and lost to me.

Razz ($1/$2), Ante $0.20, Bring-In $0.25 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.40 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 8: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

4th Street - (3.65 SB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.83 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets

6th Street - (4.83 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

River - (4.83 BB)

Seat 6: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___???

Total pot: (6.83 BB - $13.65)
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  #2  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:01 PM
roggles roggles is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

I would not really ever check 6th, although checking here is similar to the advice I got to c/c my 975 against someone with (xx)Q259 or something like that.

If you bet and get raised you can probably fold, although that's a dangerous play because if you start doing it people will pick up on it. For that reason I seriously would prefer to call and fold the river instead.

As played, I think folding 7th is really bad. In general, the river is not the place to try to find good folds.

BTW why do you play 1/2 when you're obv better than me and can thus probably beat 5/10 ?
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  #3  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:15 PM
adanthar adanthar is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

calcalcaclaclalcaclalcalcalcalclaclalcal
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  #4  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:27 PM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

* He checked 6th b/c he could not beat an 8.

* He bet the river b/c you checked on 6th.

Given these assumptions, I actually like your ch-6th/call-7th line b/c it makes you the same amount when your rough 8 holds up, but saves you a bet when you get drawn out on.
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  #5  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:38 PM
tinkerman tinkerman is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

I like your check on 6th as you could be drawing dead and he was either trying to check-raise or flat call and get another bet on the end. Of course his 6 could have been paired and he is still drawing.

You could argue to fold if he bets on 6th, but its worth a call on 7th due to the odds of nearly 7/1.

I think his call on 4th is bad because he should get away from the hand cheaply here. By calling, I doubt he could have 8-7 and more likely to be 1-2, 1-3, 1-6, 2-3 or 2-6. He cant have a 5 in the hole otherwise he folds on 5th.
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  #6  
Old 11-01-2007, 08:48 PM
Praxising Praxising is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

[ QUOTE ]
* He checked 6th b/c he could not beat an 8.

* He bet the river b/c you checked on 6th.

Given these assumptions, I actually like your ch-6th/call-7th line b/c it makes you the same amount when your rough 8 holds up, but saves you a bet when you get drawn out on.

[/ QUOTE ]
My experience with these players at this level is

*he checked 6th because he didn't have a hand yet
*he would have checked 7th if he still didn't have a hand no matter what Rusty did because he is clueless beyond his own cards

IOW, if he is like some I've met, he will never bet out unless he has five under 9. BUT - he will always betraise if he has five under 9.

If he were one of these guys I would have:

-bet 6th to get his money in, in case he never made a hand
-probably call the river knowing I am beat,

In the long run, I think it evens out. Maybe not.
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  #7  
Old 11-01-2007, 09:43 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

I don't play 5/10 because I have this antiquated notion that if I can't beat 1/2 then I shouldn't play 5/10. Currently I'm at about -.5bb/100 at 1/2. Maybe breaking even since I've done pretty well for the last few days. But also I just don't have $3000 that I can put into poker at the moment. [Edit: I can't afford coaching but god if someone could look at like a random 100 hands and tell me wtf is wrong with me, that would be great.]

The more I think about it, the more I think I was right to check 6th. I don't think I want to fold 6th and I don't want to pay 3bb to see a showdown, this way at most I will pay 1bb to see a showdown, and if he checks to me on 7th I can bet.

I paused for a long time on 7th, trying to figure out what he thought I had, what he expected me to do, etc. I finally decided that he had a 6, and he had no idea what I had, but he didn't care, and he expected me to do.... whatever. I see very little awareness from other players of how dangerous it is to bet when their opponent might only call if they're beat, so I can't count on this to be either a bluff OR a value bet - he could be betting a hand that I have beat, but not bluffing, if you know what I mean.

In the end I called.
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  #8  
Old 11-01-2007, 09:45 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

I donno if I check on 6th. I bet there hoping he paired his card somewhere along the way and show aggression to tell him you have a hand and he needs to get lucky on 7th to beat you. If he reraises it's more likely a fold.
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  #9  
Old 11-01-2007, 09:48 PM
RustyBrooks RustyBrooks is offline
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Default Re: (razz) heads up when we have no reason to trust each others hand

By the way I think he NEVER has 3 wheel cards starting here. That's my read, anyway. I would expect at least one card to be 7 or higher. So I'm not *really* afraid of a 6 on 6th, but he could have an 86, or a 76, so I do not want to take a line that results in my folding before I see 7th.
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