Ken Miller: scientist and believeing Catholic

[Mempho]

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1. This is very debatable, and so are the sources.

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OK, most of this historical events from that time could be "debatable."

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2. People die for alot of faiths, they can't all be right.

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Why would people who walked with Jesus die for a lie? They saw it firsthand. If there were no miracles, no truth to it, why would they give their lives?

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3. Do you watch the news? Miracleworkers get their followers to do the damndest things.

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So you think Jesus was some type of magician? I'd like to hear your case for this.

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4. That means you believe and all the other points are rather meaningless.

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Once again, you must be arguing that the miracles were not really miracles. If so, I'd like to hear your case.

I really can't address the rest of it because it seems to be an argument against the divinity of Jesus.

[madnak]

I shouldn't be getting involved with religious debate again, but I guess I'm hopeless. At least you seem to use your head.

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Here are some very good reasons to believe that Jesus was real:

1) Historical documents support his existence

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One reference by Tacitus. That's the only "historical document" other than the scriptures.

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2) Many first and second-hand witnesses went to their deaths professing the faith

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There are no first-hand accounts, and the authors of the (supposed) second-hand accounts probably didn't go to their deaths. It seems reasonable to me to believe that some direct followers did go to their deaths, but there is little evidence to confirm this.

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3) First-hand witnesses don't willingly go to their deaths for a lie

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And Jim Jones never existed. People go to their deaths for lies all the time. And since a Christian must acknowledge that other mutually exclusive religious traditions are "lies," the point is wholly untenable. For example, all the evidence here applies better to Muhammad than to Jesus - why have so many people died for Muhammad when his divinity is a "lie?"

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4) If the Christ story is not a lie, then the miracles were real and Christ was divine

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Not at all. In the first place, many stories (most stories from the far past) contain truth and lies in equal measure. It's not one or the other, there are shades of gray. In the second place, the Christ story may be the truth - as told by fanatic followers of Jesus. If the authors believed what they wrote, that doesn't mean they were right about it. There is much truth in Scientologist accounts of L. Ron Hubbard - does that mean Xenu exists? Any argument that applies to Islam or Scientology as well as Christianity can't be valid, as only one of the three religions (at most) can be true. This goes for other religions as well.

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5) Historical writings record the darkness during his crucifixtion

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This is false. There are no writings that record the darkness during his crucifixion other than the second- and third-hand accounts in the gospels themselves.

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There are many good reasons to follow Christ:

1) He preached love and tolerance

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And punishment and torture.

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2) He healed the sick

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Sometimes. When they agreed to worship him. And none of the sick he healed actually said word one about him - only his personal followers and servants ever claimed that he healed, and they never could reproduce the people he supposedly helped. Also, there are quack healers throughout the world with actual witnesses, so this is hardly impressive.

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3) He fed the poor

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Again, none of the people he supposedly fed ever said or wrote anything about it. And many tyrants have fed the poor on a large scale. Including many con-men who wanted credibility. Did I mention his "miracles" here - summoning bread, turning water into wine - are common stage tricks? And Jesus refused to spare money for the poor, preferring to maintain a sumptuous lifestyle. The Bible specifically mentions the oils he bought for his feet - extremely expensive oils usually reserved for the upper classes, that were administered by pretty young women who waited on Jesus hand and (literally) foot. Some selfless guy.

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4) He was most at home with the outcasts of society

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As are all con-men and cult leaders.

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5) He condemned the holier-than-art-thou Pharisees

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Condemning those in power is neither remarkable nor admirable. Again, all con-men do it.

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6) He offered complete forgiveness, even for prostitutes, thieves, etc.

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No, and this is the crux of it (no pun intended). He offered no forgiveness for anyone - except those who agreed to worship him and follow his every order. Every cult leader offers the universe to those who obey. We can see whether true compassion exists by looking at the treatment of those who don't obey. How did Jesus respond to them? He said he'd torture them for all eternity. In fact, he cursed entire nations to torture just because they were rude to him.

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7) He valued substance (heart) over form (appearance)

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Says who?

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Jesus is everything that most people yearn for in a diety.

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And everything people fear. This is exactly the strategy that con men use to garner followers. Make yourself look very appealing and promise rewards to those who follow you - but also appear threatening and powerful and promise punishments to those who don't follow you. It's a classic con and you'd be amazed how well it works. If you make someone afraid and then offer them an "out" by obeying you, they will often obey you.

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A better question for nontheists is "Why not?" Seriously. You have nothing to lose.

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The obvious answer is, there are thousands of religions on our planet. Many of them involve compassionate leaders. Any rational argument for adopting Christianity must explain why it is superior to all these other religions. Right now Christianity is the most popular religion, but that's the only unique advantage it has.

Then there's the cruelty. Ignoring the Old Testament with its savagery, its plagues, its slavery and rape... Almost all the books in the New Testament (and most of the apocrypha) mention hell. Why is hell so bad? Here I go again...

When you see someone being horribly raped (ever watched Irreversible?), your natural reaction might be "nobody deserves that." I think that's a damned fine reaction. Personally I don't like hate, but it's easy to hate destructive figures like Osama bin Laden. Still, I think any compassionate person would pity even Osama if they saw him going through a terrible torture - even if only for ten minutes.

Most people don't really think about torture, and that's good. I think a world without torture is best. But because most people don't think about torture, many people hear the word and fail to understand its impact. Imagine what it would be like to be tortured. Something "mild" even, like having your fingernails removed. Some tortures are so horrible that even thinking about them is enough to bring goose bumps. I won't mention them, but note that even the worst usually only last a few hours, tops. Think about just how bad "only" a few hours is. What would be "worth" undergoing that much pain? What could someone do that would make it good if they were tortured for a few hours?

Worse tortures by far can be extended over the course of days or even weeks. At the most distant range of human imagination we may be able to think of months of torture. But an infinity of torture? It is much worse than anything we can imagine. Is there anything anyone could ever do to deserve that?

Well, yes, according to Christianity. They could believe in the wrong God, or no God at all. And then they would deserve all of that horror. If I die today, I will deserve all of that horror. By saying that you follow the teachings of Christ, you are saying that you think I should undergo that. Now, can you understand, from my perspective, why Christianity is a bad choice?

[Mempho]

[ QUOTE ]
I shouldn't be getting involved with religious debate again, but I guess I'm hopeless. At least you seem to use your head.

[ QUOTE ]
Here are some very good reasons to believe that Jesus was real:

1) Historical documents support his existence

[/ QUOTE ]

One reference by Tacitus. That's the only "historical document" other than the scriptures.

[ QUOTE ]
2) Many first and second-hand witnesses went to their deaths professing the faith

[/ QUOTE ]

There are no first-hand accounts, and the authors of the (supposed) second-hand accounts probably didn't go to their deaths. It seems reasonable to me to believe that some direct followers did go to their deaths, but there is little evidence to confirm this.

[ QUOTE ]
3) First-hand witnesses don't willingly go to their deaths for a lie

[/ QUOTE ]

And Jim Jones never existed. People go to their deaths for lies all the time. And since a Christian must acknowledge that other mutually exclusive religious traditions are "lies," the point is wholly untenable. For example, all the evidence here applies better to Muhammad than to Jesus - why have so many people died for Muhammad when his divinity is a "lie?"

[ QUOTE ]
4) If the Christ story is not a lie, then the miracles were real and Christ was divine

[/ QUOTE ]

Not at all. In the first place, many stories (most stories from the far past) contain truth and lies in equal measure. It's not one or the other, there are shades of gray. In the second place, the Christ story may be the truth - as told by fanatic followers of Jesus. If the authors believed what they wrote, that doesn't mean they were right about it. There is much truth in Scientologist accounts of L. Ron Hubbard - does that mean Xenu exists? Any argument that applies to Islam or Scientology as well as Christianity can't be valid, as only one of the three religions (at most) can be true. This goes for other religions as well.

[ QUOTE ]
5) Historical writings record the darkness during his crucifixtion

[/ QUOTE ]

This is false. There are no writings that record the darkness during his crucifixion other than the second- and third-hand accounts in the gospels themselves.

[ QUOTE ]
There are many good reasons to follow Christ:

1) He preached love and tolerance

[/ QUOTE ]

And punishment and torture.

[ QUOTE ]
2) He healed the sick

[/ QUOTE ]

Sometimes. When they agreed to worship him. And none of the sick he healed actually said word one about him - only his personal followers and servants ever claimed that he healed, and they never could reproduce the people he supposedly helped. Also, there are quack healers throughout the world with actual witnesses, so this is hardly impressive.

[ QUOTE ]
3) He fed the poor

[/ QUOTE ]

Again, none of the people he supposedly fed ever said or wrote anything about it. And many tyrants have fed the poor on a large scale. Including many con-men who wanted credibility. Did I mention his "miracles" here - summoning bread, turning water into wine - are common stage tricks? And Jesus refused to spare money for the poor, preferring to maintain a sumptuous lifestyle. The Bible specifically mentions the oils he bought for his feet - extremely expensive oils usually reserved for the upper classes, that were administered by pretty young women who waited on Jesus hand and (literally) foot. Some selfless guy.

[ QUOTE ]
4) He was most at home with the outcasts of society

[/ QUOTE ]

As are all con-men and cult leaders.

[ QUOTE ]
5) He condemned the holier-than-art-thou Pharisees

[/ QUOTE ]

Condemning those in power is neither remarkable nor admirable. Again, all con-men do it.

[ QUOTE ]
6) He offered complete forgiveness, even for prostitutes, thieves, etc.

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and this is the crux of it (no pun intended). He offered no forgiveness for anyone - except those who agreed to worship him and follow his every order. Every cult leader offers the universe to those who obey. We can see whether true compassion exists by looking at the treatment of those who don't obey. How did Jesus respond to them? He said he'd torture them for all eternity. In fact, he cursed entire nations to torture just because they were rude to him.

[ QUOTE ]
7) He valued substance (heart) over form (appearance)

[/ QUOTE ]

Says who?

[ QUOTE ]
Jesus is everything that most people yearn for in a diety.

[/ QUOTE ]

And everything people fear. This is exactly the strategy that con men use to garner followers. Make yourself look very appealing and promise rewards to those who follow you - but also appear threatening and powerful and promise punishments to those who don't follow you. It's a classic con and you'd be amazed how well it works. If you make someone afraid and then offer them an "out" by obeying you, they will often obey you.

[ QUOTE ]
A better question for nontheists is "Why not?" Seriously. You have nothing to lose.

[/ QUOTE ]

The obvious answer is, there are thousands of religions on our planet. Many of them involve compassionate leaders. Any rational argument for adopting Christianity must explain why it is superior to all these other religions. Right now Christianity is the most popular religion, but that's the only unique advantage it has.

Then there's the cruelty. Ignoring the Old Testament with its savagery, its plagues, its slavery and rape... Almost all the books in the New Testament (and most of the apocrypha) mention hell. Why is hell so bad? Here I go again...

When you see someone being horribly raped (ever watched Irreversible?), your natural reaction might be "nobody deserves that." I think that's a damned fine reaction. Personally I don't like hate, but it's easy to hate destructive figures like Osama bin Laden. Still, I think any compassionate person would pity even Osama if they saw him going through a terrible torture - even if only for ten minutes.

Most people don't really think about torture, and that's good. I think a world without torture is best. But because most people don't think about torture, many people hear the word and fail to understand its impact. Imagine what it would be like to be tortured. Something "mild" even, like having your fingernails removed. Some tortures are so horrible that even thinking about them is enough to bring goose bumps. I won't mention them, but note that even the worst usually only last a few hours, tops. Think about just how bad "only" a few hours is. What would be "worth" undergoing that much pain? What could someone do that would make it good if they were tortured for a few hours?

Worse tortures by far can be extended over the course of days or even weeks. At the most distant range of human imagination we may be able to think of months of torture. But an infinity of torture? It is much worse than anything we can imagine. Is there anything anyone could ever do to deserve that?

Well, yes, according to Christianity. They could believe in the wrong God, or no God at all. And then they would deserve all of that horror. If I die today, I will deserve all of that horror. By saying that you follow the teachings of Christ, you are saying that you think I should undergo that. Now, can you understand, from my perspective, why Christianity is a bad choice?

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I tell you what. You've covered a lot of material here and I'd be remiss if I didn't give your objections full attention.

Your objections to Christianity were very similar to my own. I'll cover some of them in a new thread that will answer some of your more broad theological questions soon. I don't mind going back to the evidential argument, but I don't think there is any point in going forward with the evidence if you have broader reservations about the nature of the Christian God.

You're first reservations seem to be the desire to follow an all-loving God. I commend you for that. If I didn't think the Christian God was all-loving, I wouldn't follow him. I'll get a thread going and try to see how it flies.

[hexag1]

suggestion for madnak:
new loc: pwning christians in SMP


to mempho: We have nothing to lose by adopting Christianity?
What would the billion+ Muslims have to say about that?

[vhawk01]

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suggestion for madnak:
new loc: pwning christians in SMP


to mempho: We have nothing to lose by adopting Christianity?
What would the billion+ Muslims have to say about that?

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Its funny that I'm probably the only one who remembers why madnak's location is what it is.

[Subfallen]

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new loc: pwning christians in SMP

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QFT. Kid has skills.

[vhawk01]

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[ QUOTE ]
new loc: pwning christians in SMP

[/ QUOTE ]

QFT. Kid has skills.

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Haha, so many noobs. Posts like these last two make me feel so old-school.

[hexag1]

so what's madnak's back-story?

[vhawk01]

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so what's madnak's back-story?

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Well, I started posting on SMP maybe 1.5-2 years ago, and madnak was a regular poster at that point. My favorite poster, in fact. He stopped posting, mysteriously [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img], maybe....6 months ago? A little longer maybe? Not sure. He sort of disappeared. He just recently came back, and its funny for me to see people who have come to SMP in the interim reading madnak's posts for the first time.

[tpir]

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new loc: pwning christians in SMP

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QFT. Kid has skills.

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srsly. I feel dumb trying to post anything after reading the beats that he and vhawk (and some others too!) lay down.