f***ing with LAG/TAGs

[TheHip41]

Party 5-10 6max 6 handed

Button is your garden variety lag/tag, but he seems too aggressive compared to most LT

I have Q [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] in the BB, suits don't matter.

Folded to LT on the button who raises, sb folds, I call.

Flop

Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

I check, LT bets, I call

Turn

4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

I bet,

[philnewall]

preflop is terrible.
the flop is a great one for him to play back at with many hands.

[gehrig]

way to build a big pot when ur huge overpair flops top set!

[TheHip41]

[ QUOTE ]
preflop is terrible.
the flop is a great one for him to play back at with many hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

it's not terrible, it was a non standard play.

My plan was to c/r almost every flop, and go from there.

Why would I want 3bet here? If I c/r the flop, he will think I'm FOS and 3bet, or call down weak.. If I 3bet preflop, he will probably not call down with really bad hands, nor raise me with weaker holdings.

I mean, is 3betting preflop, and betting the flop of 843 really going to exploit an overaggresive lag tag if he doesn't hit the board?

[philnewall]

You don't have to slowplay premium hands preflop against aggressive opponents. All you have to do is call preflop with a range of cards so you can represent hatever flop you want.

For example you call prefloop with small off-suit aces, partly so you can c/r A-hi flops without him thinking your fos.

If you c/r the flop and he 3-bets this thinking your FOS then great! You'll be able to get even more bets out of him on the BB streets.

If the flop is 843 then yes you may well get a lot out of him still. He may make a free card play either on the flop or turn with A-hi etc and you can punish.

Why does a 3-bet preflop slow him down so much? You know he's opening a lot and adjust..he sees your adjustment of playing more hands/more aggressively and he ramps it up another notch.

[TheHip41]

I agree with this. The problem is, I don't three bet as much as you do in this situation.

Don't get me wrong, the majority of the time I just 3bet PF and go from there.

Once the flop hit, I decided to do the "screw the lag/tag" play and c/c, donk the turn, cause I know it looks like i'm still fos, and he will raise with all kinda of crap.

[RunDownHouse]

Nah, pf doesn't matter that much. Against regulars you see a lot of, I don't mind mixing it up at all. I know there are a handful of guys who'll be able to peg down my range pretty well when I 3bet out of the BB, so I mix it up sometimes too.

The problem with the turn is that it looks like a free card prevention play, so you've got some piece of the board. I don't think he's going to think you're bluffing very often at all here. He's going to just call with weakish hands and draws, fold most cheese (he might call with an ace), and raise good made hands. The problem is that good made hands would consist of TP, and you've pretty much crippled the deck for all of those. Other good made hands will be lower sets (good for you, but you could have gotten more value by going to town on the flop), some Tx (OK, but discount for both pf play and sometimes him just calling down instead of popping you), two pair hands (not very many of those), and hands currently beating you (just the straight, pretty unlikely).

So on the whole, you've got some situations where he'll let you 3bet him on the turn, but those are few and far between, especially when you consider that almost all of those hands would've gone 3 bets on the flop and 2 on the turn. Same value as a turn b/3b, but I think the former happens with much greater frequency.

Even when you decide not to c/r the flop, I think you're still better off with a turn c/r. There's a good chance he'll bluff once more or bet his A-high figuring you're on a draw, where he'll just about always fold air to your bet and sometimes fold the A. He'll bet any pair just about always, probably, and call down a c/r, but, as said above, he'll only call a donk with weakish pairs, not raise them, and the only chance for a decent pair is the last Q in the deck. So even without a flop c/r, I think a turn c/r is better than a donk.

Basically, you've accomplished your deception and mixed things up with your pf play. No need to do it on both the flop and turn, as well.

[True]

[ QUOTE ]


My plan was to c/r almost every flop, and go from there.



[/ QUOTE ]

Why didn't you?

True

[Man of Means]

Punish the aggression by 3-betting preflop and make an apparent "c-bet" on the flop hoping to get raised. That stop'n'go looks suspicious and I think most LAGs recognize it as a trap. You might get ace-high to call down, or a semi-bluff raise from a draw but that's probably it.

As explained above, a blind stealing player expects you to reraise in the BB with an ace, so you can mix it up by just calling when you get Ax. But QQ is just too strong to not push your edge.

[RunDownHouse]

[ QUOTE ]
Once the flop hit, I decided to do the "screw the lag/tag" play and c/c, donk the turn, cause I know it looks like i'm still fos, and he will raise with all kinda of crap.

[/ QUOTE ]
I guess we disagree on this. No solid player is making a turn bluff like this because its a retarded play that's going to get called by all better hands, raised by some of them, and fold out/lose value from worse hands.