8/b: Bluffed out or beaten?

getfunky · #1 02-06-2006, 04:36 PM

When I folded on 6th, I believed the player had aces in the hole, or qq, therefore I folded when he broke into an open pair. But the interesting thing about this hand is I started thinking about a great move. I generally raise on 4th if I'm the villian and have a str8 draw, just to take the value and possibly tie the weak players to the pot. But what about just calling here with a str8 draw and raising if I brick on 5th. This gives me an additional way to win the hand as villian did here when he made an open pair. Also you don't lose much value, as you can get a big bet in on 5th if you're lucky enough to make the str8. The disadvantage of this play is if I hit another connector, and the villian has any kind of brain he can relinquish the small pot.

7 Card Stud High-Low ($10/$20), Ante $1, Bring-In $3 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___completes

4th Street - (2.90 SB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets

5th Street - (2.45 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (6.45 BB)

Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds

Total pot: (6.45 BB)

jonny quest · #2 02-06-2006, 05:09 PM

The Qc on 5th brought out the aggression, but would he have proceeded from 3rd with QQ knowing the Qh was dead and your K showing? Probably. QQ seems the most logical holding at these stakes.

Slightly lower stakes, I could even see a Donk playing a Qs6s.

In any event, he is representing two pair or better...I think you were beat.

Raul Wong · #3 02-06-2006, 06:13 PM

This a good fold. When I play hands like this I usually end up calling down and then banging my head against the wall when I am shown some hidden trips or a big pair or something a lone pair of kings loses to.

bigredlemon · #4 02-06-2006, 10:29 PM

I don't play 10/20 but I think it's safe to say that if a villain is showing weakness in a small pot then out of nowhere raises after catching an apparent blank on a big bet street, you are almost always in a very bad spot or at best only slightly ahead. Personally I'd rather either fold 5th or call 6th. If kings up is good enough to win you still have to call 6th, and if he could beat kings up, you should have folded 5th.

His reasonable range on 5th is probably something like:
trips --> full house. fold 5th and 6th.
aces --> aces up. fold 5th and 6th.
queens --> queens up. call 5th and 6th.
low straight --> low straight with a pair. call 5th and 6th.

So there's pretty much no hand that is worth a call on 5th that isn't also worth a call on 6th. The only exception being a hand with 55, and I the kind of person who would make that raise you should be able to plainly see so it shouldn't a suprise to you.

getfunky · #5 02-07-2006, 06:55 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If kings up is good enough to win you still have to call 6th, and if he could beat kings up, you should have folded 5th.

[/ QUOTE ] i see you're point, and it's good one, based solely on this hand, but if I lay it down on 5th, the table starts c/r me with no hand. i can respectably fold when the villian shows an open pair, as aces in the hole is a very likely hand. it sounds retarded but you have to make some of these calls to prevent the table from running you over. Anyway, my real question revolves around the value of just calling with a small str8 draw and raising like this when you brick as a means of mixing up your play and giving you additional ways to win the hand.

benwood · #6 02-08-2006, 03:06 AM

4th:I think a check is better.

5th:You have played your hand strongly so far.He knows you have at least a pair of K's,& he's still raising.I would fold.Instead of making weak calls to discourage players from check-raising you,throw the weak hands away,but be sure to re-raise whenever it seems like a reasonable alternative to calling.This will discourage their speculative raises a lot more.

getfunky · #7 02-08-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
5th:You have played your hand strongly so far.He knows you have at least a pair of K's,& he's still raising.I would fold.Instead of making weak calls to discourage players from check-raising you,throw the weak hands away,but be sure to re-raise whenever it seems like a reasonable alternative to calling.This will discourage their speculative raises a lot more.

[/ QUOTE ] You are right. Calling is no defense against a semibluff. Reraising here is suicidal, that makes folding correct. On 4th I generally check if the player caught a connected low card, but I sensed weakness in his initial call, which I now believe was hesitation with pocket aces, thinking about how he wanted to play the hand.