Can I get away from this?

45suited · #1 02-27-2007, 05:33 PM

Live game, just sat down at the table.

2/4 limit

UTG calls, 2 folds, MP3 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises in CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], button folds, SB calls, BB calls (10 sb)

FLOP Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5 players / 10 SB

SB checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP3 raises, Hero 3bets, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls, MP3 calls

TURN 2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 players / 9 BB

UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls

RIVER 7 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3 players / 12 BB

UTG bets, MP3 calls, Hero calls

I had never played with UTG before, but she was a woman in her 60s, she seemed like the rockish type, but I can't actually fold this hand, can I? Her call of my flop 3 bet followed by leading out the turn and river was strange, to say the least. Folding here just seems sick, even though I "knew" that I was beat...

Without having any reads, can I actually fold this hand?

ChuckyB · #2 02-27-2007, 06:49 PM

No.

WMB · #3 02-27-2007, 07:13 PM

the more you play live low limit and the more you observe your opponents, you will find spots where you can get away from very good hands cheaply. when utg calls two cold on the flop and donks the turn an alarm bell should go off in your head. folding here is contrary to a lot of advice found on this site, but there comes a point where you have to trust your reads and save bets when necessary.

zuluking · #4 02-27-2007, 10:23 PM

You can't fold this. There are enough times that UTG has a weaker queen that make this worth calling. Of course, it would be unlikely, but yet slightly probable, that all 3 of you have a queen.

robby.hart · #5 02-27-2007, 10:59 PM

Why not raise the turn and fold to a reraise? Same for river. If you think you're ahead you should raise. If you think you might already be behind, calling is your worst play, you can't think you have enough outs to make a value call. You invite your opponents to call with the worst hand and you keep them from raising with the best hand.

45suited · #6 02-27-2007, 11:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise the turn and fold to a reraise? Same for river. If you think you're ahead you should raise. If you think you might already be behind, calling is your worst play, you can't think you have enough outs to make a value call. You invite your opponents to call with the worst hand and you keep them from raising with the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think that this is way oversimplistic. Calling while "thinking" that you have the worst hand is sometimes correct, it's just a matter of how often my hand is good relative to the size of the pot. I was pretty sure that the other caller had a dominated queen, so he was drawing to a three outer on me if my hand was good. Against a smaller PP my hand is only facing two outs. I've got the ace, so the only other river card that could be problematic is a K, if I am currently ahead.

Also, especially early in a session, I hate to show so much strength (raise pf, 3bet the flop, then as you say, raise the turn), and then not see a showdown. This simply invites players to play back at me, if they are at all paying attention.

But more to the point, to say that "calling when you think you might be behind is the worst play" is absurd, we do this all the time, especially in big pots. Folding a winning hand in a big pot is a mathematical disaster.

ncboiler · #7 02-28-2007, 12:02 AM

You can fold this hand but I think it's a bad idea. You say you have no read but she seemed like the rock'ish type. Not sure what that means but I don't think its a valid read. There are a lot of granny Qx hands that she feels like she is protecting by betting the turn. River brings no overcard...now her Qx becomes a value bet in her mind.If she had a 5 why would she not check raise the turn? It's a rainbow board with no real draws. Hindsight is 20/20 and apparently you lost the hand but folding would be very bad. Think about it...you;re getting 14:1.

ncboiler · #8 02-28-2007, 12:05 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why not raise the turn and fold to a reraise? Same for river. If you think you're ahead you should raise. If you think you might already be behind, calling is your worst play, you can't think you have enough outs to make a value call. You invite your opponents to call with the worst hand and you keep them from raising with the best hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

I really think that this is way oversimplistic. Calling while "thinking" that you have the worst hand is sometimes correct, it's just a matter of how often my hand is good relative to the size of the pot. I was pretty sure that the other caller had a dominated queen, so he was drawing to a three outer on me if my hand was good. Against a smaller PP my hand is only facing two outs. I've got the ace, so the only other river card that could be problematic is a K, if I am currently ahead.

Also, especially early in a session, I hate to show so much strength (raise pf, 3bet the flop, then as you say, raise the turn), and then not see a showdown. This simply invites players to play back at me, if they are at all paying attention.

But more to the point, to say that "calling when you think you might be behind is the worst play" is absurd, we do this all the time, especially in big pots. Folding a winning hand in a big pot is a mathematical disaster.

[/ QUOTE ]

Seems like you answered your own question. NH