Tells

[bellatrix]

Ok, so perhaps this belongs into the B&M forum. Or the beginners forum... or, well this forum.
I was playing 4/8 last night. I was down 300$ and started to do a great comeback. I was only at -40$ at the point this hand happened:

Button is semi pro. You guys probably don't know him, but he has made plenty of WSOP final tables and stuff. Gamblor at heart, can play Any Two Cards, but is extremely well post-flop. His main game is PLO8, but that doesn't mean that he's bad at Hold'em.

Hero is CO with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
2 limps, hero raises, Button 3-bets, blinds fold, limpers call, Hero calls.

Flop: 2 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]
Check, Hero bets, Button raises, limpers fold, Hero calls

Turn: Some blank like 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero checks, Button checks.

Mhmm, he's either on a draw too, or has an underpair and is glad to see a free card on WA/WB. I'm gonna bet the river no matter if the flush gets there to represent the Q (which is why I bet the flop originally, right?).

River: K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Hero bets... Villain...

He thinks for a few moments, then says: "Very good thinking, trying to get me off my underpair. But you see, you bet without even looking at the river card. That King scares the hands that have a Q, so you would have to have thought for a second before betting it. Also, if you DID hit the king, you still have to LOOK at the river... You just bet without really looking at the river. I call" Pocket 9s, nice hand.

Obviously I'm a tell box. And often I sit there in a live game and think I'm a tell box. How do you work on tells. I am kinda good detecting tells in others, but when it comes to me... perhaps I'm really bad.

How do you work on YOUR tells?

[Gib]

why donk flop?
why bet river?

[Gib]

oh as for live tells, I wouldn't know if I have any. But my usual word of advice is to have a couple drinks, have fun, chat & have a few jokes with ur opps, esp the donating donks. I try to be relaxed & look like I'm there only to have a good time.

[bellatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
why donk flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised

[ QUOTE ]

why bet river?

[/ QUOTE ]

Bluff. I have successfully bluffed this guy before and will do it once every 10 hands. He almost folded (which I implied by the "..."). I am known in this game as pretty tight and usually bet it when I have it. I don't bluff calling stations, button is NOT a calling station, he can be put off a hand.

[bellatrix]

[ QUOTE ]
oh as for live tells, I wouldn't know if I have any. But my usual word of advice is to have a couple drinks, have fun, chat & have a few jokes with ur opps, esp the donating donks. I try to be relaxed & look like I'm there only to have a good time.

[/ QUOTE ]

This only works if you only go there about once a month, right. Eventually they'll catch on. At my local club, they have... [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[bennyhana]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
why donk flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised



[/ QUOTE ]

DUCY that plan backfired?

As for tells, he must be pretty good to catch on to that (not looking at the river). I would start doing the 1,2,3 count before every decision. Just count it out in your head, then bet, call, raise or fold. You must do it, even when you know your action. I use it at my home game when I think someone has something on me. They are soon lost again. mmmwahahahah

[bravos1]

hmm I actually find it very unlikely that you did not look at the river before you bet since you had the nut flush draw...

I really wouldn't worry about giving off too many tells playing live. People are just not that observant. I do try to do the same things every time though. I never look at my cards until it is my turn to act and I always keep a chip on my cards until that time comes. I try to follow the action closely. Yesterday I was in the 5-200 spread game and the BB thought he was UTG and tried to raise to $20. A few people actually noticed, but the CO, BTN, and SB did not. The CO limped, BTN completed (button has a blind in this game), SB completed, and then BB raised.. LOL all 3 grumbled and only thh SB called and folded on the flop. I chuckled a bit. Also before I act, I tend to glimpse at the player to my left. They will sometimes tip their action by holding enough chips for a call or raise.

[TimovieMan]

[ QUOTE ]
Equity! Not against button, but against the other two limpers. They usually call one bet. Ok, that plan backfired when button raised.

[/ QUOTE ]
He's the preflop 3-bettor. What makes you think he's NOT going to raise your bet NOR bet out himself when you check???
This is an obvious check-raise, and that represents the Q even more than just donking, imho.


As far as tells go, some good advice has already been given. Don't look at your cards until it's actually your turn to act, and always give it a few seconds before every action, even if that action is already clear to you...

And the laid back "simply enjoying myself" attitude really works, even against opponents you play regularly. If you're well liked at the table, they'll mind less that they lose to you.

Maybe not a good comparison, but if you've ever watched televised high stakes poker (I know that's NL, but still). Who would you rather lose your chips to and still remain at the table? Daniel "positive attitude" Negreanu or Phil "tilty explosive - even if it's just for show" Helmuth? [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[neurotiq]

Put me in the camp that advocates checking to the preflop reraiser. Like you said, the limpers will call one bet, but likely not two. So, let's go for a c/r and trap them rather than force them out.

As far as tells, I tend to agree with Bravos. Lots of people don't notice them and, even if they do, they don't use these tells to make a better play. (On one occasion, I check-raised another girl after hitting my straight on the river. After I raised her, she asked "did you hit your straight?" I responded "Yep. I did." She paid off the raise anyway. And while this may not have been my best form, it does illustrate a point; even when you give a sure-fire tell, a lot of people at low stakes tend not to use that tell to their advantage.)

[Bona]

I have only been playing live for a laughably short time. I have considered whether tells are costing me but decided the games I play in are mostly populated by unaware players. Here I some things I do do to try and minimize the problem.

Handle the cards and chips exactly the same way whether I am calling, folding, raising, I have a routine kind of like a golfer setting up for a shot, I don't start my routine until it is my turn, and I use the routine no matter what the situation is. Actually I have two routines and use them sporadically. I am pretty deadpan during all hands but try to be conversational between hands.

Also this guy is more of a chatterbox than you are a tell box for sure. He is clearly thinking and wants everyone to know how smart he is. You can use that effectively in the future I am sure.

In the final analysis though I can't justify playing with really strong players in a raked game. I avoid him unless it's the only choice and the other players are soft (looks like some of them may be) Then I avoid HU situations. I wouldn't have avoided this one though.

Overall nice hand and worth a shot in that pot. I hope you will keep posting live play situations. The B&M forum usually offers little in the way of strategy, mostly rules and such but I want to learn to play better live and I think I can learn from your experiences.