A rag or 98o?

[cato988]

In turbo online tournys and you're in a situation where you are forced to go all-in would you rather push w/ two rags or A rag? The idea behind the two rags of course being that the person that is going to call you could have A better and you are drawing to one out. Also with two rags, you are an underdog, but not by that much. The A rag idea is that the A high will give you the win in the long run over ATC.
What do you like to push on? I have reasons to side with both ideas, but in my experience I think that pushing w/ A rag is better just because if they dont have a pocket pair or A then I'm doing fine. I feel like its worth the amount of times that I'm dominated

Ideas? Comments?

[sh58]

what you are really talking about is the equity against peoples calling range.

you can just pokerstove it with different ranges and see how the hands match up

[cato988]

yea, but I'm curious about discussion through human insight about the situation. I'm interested in the "theory" and not the explicitly the "odds"

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

you can just pokerstove it with different ranges and see how the hands match up

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No, you can't. Suppose your opponent's calling range is just AA. When called, you are in significantly worse shape with Axo than with 98o. However, you are better off pushing with Axo against that opponent because you block half of the AA combinations, and so you will be called less frequently, 3 times out of 1225 instead of 6 times out of 1225. Losing 84% of your stack 3 times is better than losing 64% of your stack 6 times. This blocking effect is not reported by PokerStove.

As I recall, Axs does better than 76s against many plausible calling ranges when called. The blocking effect adds to this, making it even more clear to play Ax and hope you aren't dominated.

[Bone_Daddy]

My read on this is that you are more likely dominated late in a tournament jamming ace rag vs. 2 live cards, as the most likely hand range includes big pairs and any ace better than yours. Have not done the math to see how ace rag holds up against a calling range of better ace x, vs. 89o vs. ace rag, but I sure know I've been busted out of many a tournament jamming ace rag into a better ace.

I've had better luck with the 89. (89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

[futuredoc85]

depends on what position you're pushing from and what their calling ranges are (if you have any reads).

[JamieO]

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depends on what position you're pushing from and what their calling ranges are (if you have any reads).

[/ QUOTE ]
qft

In early position with an M of 3-5 i will push 89o, but fold a-rag. In middle and late position i will push both.
If my M<3 then i will push both early.

[pzhon]

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I've had better luck with the 89.

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You'll need it.

[ QUOTE ]

(89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

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If A3 is in your opponent's calling range, would you rather push with 89 or A7? That you might get lucky with 98o and you might get unlucky with A7 is not a rational argument against the ugly but stronger A7 hand.

[Bone_Daddy]

I used a bad example, point was simple.

Throw out calling range with big pairs, they call your hopeing for miricle (which many sites do deliever).

I would rather have two live cards (89) than ace rag against a better ace.

Better example. (Just heads up, interested in PS calcs)
89 vs Ace 7 (i.e. split high cards)42%
89 vs. ace 10 (2 overs KQ/AQ)37%
Ace rag (assume 2 - 6) vs better ace (used ace 7 for calc)23%
ace rag vs. 2 KQ (2 overs)57%

I'm not calling a jam with 2 overs like kq (without more info), but I will with ace k/q, so have better odds, around 40% with 89, than a dominated ace 23%.

Keep jamming those weak aces. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

[futuredoc85]

[ QUOTE ]
My read on this is that you are more likely dominated late in a tournament jamming ace rag vs. 2 live cards, as the most likely hand range includes big pairs and any ace better than yours. Have not done the math to see how ace rag holds up against a calling range of better ace x, vs. 89o vs. ace rag, but I sure know I've been busted out of many a tournament jamming ace rag into a better ace.

I've had better luck with the 89. (89 vs. ace 3 heads up, you are a 44% fav, ace 7 vs. ace 10 you are 24%) I take the 89

[/ QUOTE ]

Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9d 8h 252629 14.75 1453302 84.87 6373 0.37 0.149
Ts Tc 1453302 84.87 252629 14.75 6373 0.37 0.851


Holdem Hi: 1712304 enumerated boards
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Ad 7h 487639 28.48 1220220 71.26 4445 0.26 0.286
Ts Tc 1220220 71.26 487639 28.48 4445 0.26 0.714