Stars $109 isolation play...

wrschultz · #1 10-31-2006, 02:25 AM

Thoughts?

PokerStars Game #6837203315: Tournament #34619010, $100+$9 Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (300/600) - 2006/10/31 - 01:19:37 (ET)
Table '34619010 48' 9-max Seat #8 is the button
Seat 1: dumba900 (5550 in chips)
Seat 4: Rizen (11775 in chips)
Seat 5: oz_champ (9770 in chips)
Seat 6: cardmaster27 (170 in chips)
Seat 7: alandhb (5630 in chips)
Seat 8: sleepinbaby (1755 in chips)
Seat 9: wrschultz (20442 in chips)
dumba900: posts the ante 50
Rizen: posts the ante 50
oz_champ: posts the ante 50
cardmaster27: posts the ante 50
alandhb: posts the ante 50
sleepinbaby: posts the ante 50
wrschultz: posts the ante 50
wrschultz: posts small blind 300
dumba900: posts big blind 600
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to wrschultz [Jh 5d]
Rizen: folds
oz_champ: folds
cardmaster27: calls 120 and is all-in
alandhb: folds
sleepinbaby: folds
wrschultz: raises 6000 to 6600
dumba900: folds
*** FLOP *** [3h Kd 7h]
*** TURN *** [3h Kd 7h] [Kh]
*** RIVER *** [3h Kd 7h Kh] [Qd]
*** SHOW DOWN ***
wrschultz: shows [Jh 5d] (a pair of Kings)
wrschultz collected 960 from side pot
cardmaster27: shows [Qs 4s] (two pair, Kings and Queens)
cardmaster27 collected 710 from main pot
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot 1670 Main pot 710. Side pot 960. | Rake 0
Board [3h Kd 7h Kh Qd]
Seat 1: dumba900 (big blind) folded before Flop
Seat 4: Rizen folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 5: oz_champ folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 6: cardmaster27 showed [Qs 4s] and won (710) with two pair, Kings and Queens
Seat 7: alandhb folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 8: sleepinbaby (button) folded before Flop (didn't bet)
Seat 9: wrschultz (small blind) showed [Jh 5d] and won (960) with a pair of Kings

uclabruinz · #2 10-31-2006, 02:36 AM

Hate it.

stsharp413 · #3 10-31-2006, 03:21 AM

Limp or fold. Isolation here is really unnecessary, especially with J-5. Even against two random cards you don't rate to be a gigantic favorite and could very well a 3-2 dog.

A couple of reasons for discouraging the isolation here:

1. The BB is low-stacked himself here. With the starting pot at 1,300, he's looking for a hand to make a move. If you raise to put him all-in, he's only calling you when you're behind. When he folds, you don't win much if you win at all.

2. Even raising a normal size can end up committing you to the pot if he comes over the top. For instance, you raise to 2,000 and he goes all-in, you have to call about 3,500 more giving you about 2-1 odds on your money and you will almost certainly be stuck. The odds of you raising and him cold-calling are very slim at this point.

3. Team up to knock this guy out. The more hands involved, the better chance you have to get rid of him and move on.

I'm not a pro by any stretch of the imagination. Who has any other thoughts?

BaHorst · #4 10-31-2006, 03:23 AM

your risking a ton with garbage just to win the antes and blinds. UGLY.

wrschultz · #5 10-31-2006, 03:38 AM

Well my thinking here is that he only has 1/5 of a BB... I'm not even really concerned with the main pot, but my plan is to get the BB to fold and win the side pot which is substantial. I have an ok stack, and the BB is pretty short, but not dire, and even if I lose 10BB here I am still in fine shape.

I guess the deciding factor here is how frequently the BB will call me. If he calls 1 of 10 times, it's an extremely easy shove and not doing so is terrible. If he calls me 1 of 5 times, I think it's about breakeven...

mikeJ · #6 10-31-2006, 03:55 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Hate it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Because it hurts our ability to steal in the future?

As a stand alone play, I think this is def +cEV. Since the BB will see your hand @ showdown vs. the AI player, he's less likely to put you on a trash like you had and call a bit tighter than he normally would.

UCLA, you're shoving if it's folded to you in the sb right?

Jurollo · #7 10-31-2006, 04:04 AM

I dont mind it as much if you are going to play TAG after this. Showing down trash, no matter what the pot size can be good long term if you know how to work off that image. Hands like this allow you take advantage of big hands early but will seriously hinder your ability to steal in the future, adjust correctly and I like this, if you don't adjust then it isnt worth it. Essentially... I could go either way on the hand, no matter what happens in the hand that isnt the big issue here, its in future pots where plays like this either earn their merit or prove to be someone's undoing.
~J

uclabruinz · #8 10-31-2006, 10:05 AM

Look at the stacks here. We don't want to be playing TAG now. Some people never catch on that you're shoving with stuff like J5o. If this folds to me I shove without hesitation, but the fact we have to showdown J5o here after shoving costs us future EV that makes the shove here not worth it. Plus you buy a little credibility for future shoves by folding here.