$16: Flopped boat flop play

Emperor Norton · #1 08-02-2007, 09:31 PM

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t20 (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP3 (t1500)
CO (t1490)
Hero (t1470)
SB (t1600)
BB (t1500)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1440)
MP1 (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls t20, 1 fold, MP2 calls t20, 2 folds, Hero calls t20, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (t100) 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB bets t70, UTG+1 folds, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t220

Standard? Does anybody raise more? Does anybody smooth-call?

TwistedEcho · #2 08-02-2007, 09:34 PM

Seems fine, sometimes i just call.

chuckpalms04 · #3 08-02-2007, 09:45 PM

i prob call since there are no scare cards for us (since we have top full) and it gives villain an extra chance to bluff at the pot or someone else a chance to 'catch up' on a diamond or straight draw.

Jacey · #4 08-02-2007, 09:47 PM

Smooth call and hope the SB comes along for the ride?

Emperor Norton · #5 08-02-2007, 09:56 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i prob call since there are no scare cards for us (since we have top full) and it gives villain an extra chance to bluff at the pot or someone else a chance to 'catch up' on a diamond or straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the question for me. Is it better to make a smallish raise to charge draws now, hoping that villain will chase, or let villain price himself in hoping that he'll hit? I figure that I'm bound to bust a player with trips, and I won't make much more out of someone with a small pocket pair regardless, so draws are the most important part of villain's range. I really don't know which approach is better against a complete unknown.

TwistedEcho · #6 08-02-2007, 10:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i prob call since there are no scare cards for us (since we have top full) and it gives villain an extra chance to bluff at the pot or someone else a chance to 'catch up' on a diamond or straight draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's the question for me. Is it better to make a smallish raise to charge draws now, hoping that villain will chase, or let villain price himself in hoping that he'll hit? I figure that I'm bound to bust a player with trips, and I won't make much more out of someone with a small pocket pair regardless, so draws are the most important part of villain's range. I really don't know which approach is better against a complete unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

if he has trips its going in anyway. If he lead out with a draw, hes unlikely to fold it if you bet small, just make sure you bet an amount you think he can call on the turn and won't make him fold, but not too cheap.

If hes bluffing hes unlikely to lose too much here unless he hits the turn, so i often just raise it so he shove a flushdraw or to charge him to peel to peel/straight draws.

I dont think it really matters too much tho

ymu · #7 08-02-2007, 10:03 PM

With a hand that can't have more than 1 or 2 outs against it and which has most hands drawing to runner runner trips, I like a smooth call or a small raise. Your line looks fine, but a slightly smaller raise might work better.

If he's decent he's not going to pay much to draw with 79 or a flush or TPxK on a paired flushy flop so you need to make sure he gets great odds to draw, or just call and pray he makes it. If he's got a 6 it doesn't matter either way - but you want the draws to stay in.

The problem with a smooth call is that it can get a bit transparent when you get excited on a blank card later on and if he's not drawing to diamonds there are a lot of scare cards which kill your action. It also makes it harder to get it AI by the river.

The problem with a raise is that you don't want him to fold. At this level, this is often not a problem but they're not all stupid.

SB in a limped pot is quite likely to have a weak hand which can't stand a raise - but then again, he led the flop so if he's weak he's probably an idiot who might call. If he seems decent I think I might smooth call here, but otherwise I'd raise.

Chawklit Rain · #8 08-02-2007, 10:10 PM

Smooth call obv.

TwistedEcho · #9 08-02-2007, 10:12 PM

Also when you raise flop, you stack A8/99/TT much more, simple people never expect you to raise the flop with 6x since everyone loves to trap. I think to a random raising the flop looks weaker than calling and raising a blank turn.

ymu · #10 08-02-2007, 10:21 PM

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Also when you raise flop, you stack A8/99/TT much more, simple people never expect you to raise the flop with 6x since everyone loves to trap. I think to a random raising the flop looks weaker than calling and raising a blank turn.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think this is spot on. He either has a hand he can call/push with or he doesn't, so raising does the best job of getting maximum value when he does and you probably weren't getting much more out of other hands anyway.

The other benefit of playing these hands strongly, if shown down, is that your bets/raises with weaker hands will tend to get a decent amount of respect - they might know you don't always have it, but at least they also know you would bet it strong if you did.