Slansky- Preflop raises should differ based on the hand

[tomsOn]

From what I noticed railing NL2k on PS H@££INGGOL sometimes raises 4xbb with mediocre holdings when there are a couple of limpers. Normally someone would bet pot or more here, but I guess he likes to gain initiative in a cheap way so that he can make a smaller cont bet on flop.

I like Phil Gordons theory on raising pf from his Green Book, which says that your pre-flop raises should depend on position. Smaller out of position, larger in position. This way you play bigger pots in pos, smaller oop and there's a bigger chance you steal the blinds. I don't necessarily agree with the numbers he wrote though.

Raising dependant on hand strength would make you easier to read, Gordons idea is better imo.

[edge]

Raising small out of position also makes it very unlikely that you take it down preflop. A lot of the strength in raising preflop with a wide range is that you can take it down from any position, and without that ability, you have to change your range to include a much higher percentage of premium hands.

Edit: I think raising larger in early position and smaller in late position would make more sense. Of course, you'll almost never steal the blinds with a 2.5xBB open from the button, but you'll be playing a pot in position against a wider (read: weaker) range than with a 4xBB open. When in early position, your 5xBB open charges people to play pots in position against you.

I stick to a standard open regardless of position, so this could be completely wrong, but it makes some sense to me.

[tomsOn]

The concept of playing larger pots in position is something that is to me a lot more important than the reduced possibility of stealing the blinds from EP.

I mentioned that I disagree with the numbers Gordon provided, 2.5xbb oop is one of them (too small).

No idea is without flaws. If you have AA in EP you're still forced to bet smaller.

There is probably no best way to raise pre-flop, since there are too many variables, but Gordons idea is nice thing to consider.

[pfkaok]

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If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


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It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
Edit: I think raising larger in early position and smaller in late position would make more sense. Of course, you'll almost never steal the blinds with a 2.5xBB open from the button, but you'll be playing a pot in position against a wider (read: weaker) range than with a 4xBB open. When in early position, your 5xBB open charges people to play pots in position against you.


[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think the raise less in LP ONLY makes sense from the button. from LP, if you make a smaller raise, you'll be less likely to get the button and have position postflop. If you're 1-3 off the button, and are an aggressive player, everyone behind you knows that your openning range is large. With a small raise, people behind you, or the player on the button will be much more likely to call and/or play back at you. Since your openning range will be wide from LP, you certainly don't want that.

[gomberg]

I actually used to vary my raises a lot w/ hand strength being a big part of it. I was very successful using this strategy. But for the past 6 months, I've just been raising the pot regardless because of lazyness and multi-tabling. I'm going to try and get back to varying my preflop raises though. It adds another dimension you can out-think your opponents in...

[pfkaok]

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But for the past 6 months, I've just been raising the pot regardless because of lazyness and multi-tabling.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yeah. I must admit i've only recently gotten to think more about my PFR's, and WHY i'm making them. And most of the reason i didn't do so for a long time was lazyness while multitabling. I also toyed around with the Phil Gordon idea, and I think I actually liked that better than the "standard" raise every time. I think that Gordon's idea has a lot of merit, and if its adjusted to use game conditions, opponent tendencies and your hand, then it might be optimal or V close.

The thing is, the game is just so dynamic, and complex, and has tons of different things that can happen after your preflop raise until the hand is over. Its virtually impossible to actually prove which preflop play would be "optimal" for a given table and situation. But its at least very, very likely that deviating from a standard preflop formula from time to time will help you increase your EV.

[good2cu]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you raise to differnt amounts with a differnt range of hands, your oppents can ovbiously narrow your range more then they could if you never vary your opening raise.

[pfkaok]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
If pre-flop raises should differ based on the hand, why not show the hand to everyone on the table?


[/ QUOTE ]

It's not based only on your hand. Your hand is just 1 factor. If you base it on, position, # of limpers, type of limpers, types of players behind you, and what your hand is... that will usually maximize EV. and nobody, even if they saw you play 1 million hands, would be able to know what your hand is based on your raise size. Because, if you do it properly, you'll have a range of hands, not a single hand for each raise size and situation, and also, you'll be randomizing it a bit, and throwing in some bluffs and semibluffs to throw off those who think they know what you have.

Basically, Ed and David are just saying that you can maximize earn by taking a lot more factors into account, rather than just rigidly doing 3x + BB(limper), or whatever every single time.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well if you raise to differnt amounts with a differnt range of hands, your oppents can ovbiously narrow your range more then they could if you never vary your opening raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

well, if you're basing it on a lot of factors, as well as hand strength, and randomizing it too, then they can't narrow it too much. Not to mention most of the times they don't see your hand anyways. So it'd take them forever to gather enough info on you.

If you're randomizing at all, they'd have to do some serious weighted averages, and bayesian analysis in their heads in the middle of the hand to have an accurate idea of what your range could be. and even then, they could maybe say you have range X 60-70% of the time.

[gomberg]

Right - as long as you balance the strategy out, you're not leaking too much. Obviously you don't want to do the standard pot raise preflop then w/ AA and KK raise 2x pot.