AKo versus The Nemesis of the Day - Page 2

labrat · #11 08-01-2006, 01:08 PM

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I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

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Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

notevenhere · #12 08-01-2006, 01:15 PM

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I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

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Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

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Because there is a great chance your c-bet on the flop takes the pot down right there.

This has to be fold or push on the turn I think. Fold > Push.

labrat · #13 08-01-2006, 01:31 PM

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I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

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Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

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Because there is a great chance your c-bet on the flop takes the pot down right there.

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But were usually ahead when he folds the flop, so do we really gain much from folding his likely one pair draw?

notevenhere · #14 08-01-2006, 01:36 PM

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I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

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Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

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Because there is a great chance your c-bet on the flop takes the pot down right there.

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But were usually ahead when he folds the flop, so do we really gain much from folding his likely one pair draw?

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If we are ahead after the flop, then we're putting money in when we are a favorite. Why would you think this is bad?

As for someone folding when we are behind, obviously I don't have to explain why this is good right?

labrat · #15 08-01-2006, 01:41 PM

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I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there is a great chance your c-bet on the flop takes the pot down right there.

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But were usually ahead when he folds the flop, so do we really gain much from folding his likely one pair draw?

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If we are ahead after the flop, then we're putting money in when we are a favorite. Why would you think this is bad?

As for someone folding when we are behind, obviously I don't have to explain why this is good right?

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What I meant was, I think he only folds to our CB when were ahead, and he folds correctly, so what do we gain if all our bet achieves is folding out worse hands with few outs?

ThePortuguee · #16 08-01-2006, 01:44 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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[ QUOTE ]
I'm using my position on this turn and checking behind

[/ QUOTE ]
Why is checking behind on the turn a good option with tptk, but not checking behind on the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

Because there is a great chance your c-bet on the flop takes the pot down right there.

[/ QUOTE ]

But were usually ahead when he folds the flop, so do we really gain much from folding his likely one pair draw?

[/ QUOTE ]

If we are ahead after the flop, then we're putting money in when we are a favorite. Why would you think this is bad?

As for someone folding when we are behind, obviously I don't have to explain why this is good right?

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I like a turn check a lot, especially in light of our conversation here.

To answer some questinos: there are a couple reaosns why a turn check is better than a flop check. One: we simply need to be c-betting a lot of hands, generally speaking, and this is a flop where we have a good chacne to just pickup the pot. This is standard and obvious, but is ultimately the operative concept at play here, IMO. We have to c-bet this flop because we'd like the pot to be over.

On the turn, though, we now have a hand with some showdown value, and position, but we at the same time need to be wary of the possible slowplaying villain. While a draw is possible, there are a few things to think about:

1) Villain cna be slowplaying a monster
2) Villain can also have marginal holdings that were calling light on the flop, but that will now give up to a second barrel, and would have if any face card came.
3) Villain will still probably miss his draw.
4) A combination of 2 and 3 will likely extract extra value for hero. When villain has a marginal hand, he will often either make a thin value bet or check the river with hands like PP's or a TP ok Kicker type hand. We can call these bets, or value bet our king if checked to and expect a call from a worse hand a reasonable percentage fo the time. Additinoally, missed draws will often bluff at the weakness we showed when we checked the turn behind.
5) Additinoally, with this line, our turn check keeps us from committing our whole stack in this tough situation, and lets us call a relatively small value bet on the river and lose just that bet to a set rather than a much larger bet.
6) If a flush card comes, a set might get scared and check, and we could check down, losing only one flop bet.

Cry Me A River · #17 08-01-2006, 01:45 PM

Baluga Whale Theorem

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

Sudden aggression on the turn means re-evaluation is essential. What does villain call the flop and reraise with here:

AK/QK
AT
Set/2pair (T8 or KT)
Flush draw

OP doesn't say villain has reraised flush draws before, typically flush chasers do not reraise with their draws and if they do it's usually on the flop NOT the turn.

Is villain likely to float the flop with AK/QK? Or use the K as a scare card if he has AT?

I don't think any of this is very likely and unless we have a much better read on villain this is a pretty clear fold. He has 55/88/TT/KT just about always.

notevenhere · #18 08-01-2006, 01:51 PM

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What I meant was, I think he only folds to our CB when were ahead, and he folds correctly, so what do we gain if all our bet achieves is folding out worse hands with few outs?

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First of all, it is 100% untrue that we don't have any FE vs a hand we are behind. So that premise is false to begin with.

I don't want to sound like an ass or anything, but asking why we should bet when we are ahead is a question that belongs in the beginners forum.

But I'll attempt it anyways. So you KNOW for a fact that your AK is ahead here. How in the hell is checking better than betting? Do you really think that AK-high is a hand worthy of slow playing?

Quercus · #19 08-01-2006, 02:02 PM

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Im thinking he has KsXs, and is now reraising his pair, and going for a freeroll for the flush. Get your money in now before you get into a difficult decision on the river. I think this is a set 30% of the time, KsXs 50% of the time, and 20% a (semi)bluff for the flush draw. Really curious at showdown now [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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Hero cries and calls as villain shows A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] and scoops the pot.

Knowing that villain has used the same line on a flopped set and a flush draw, how would you play against the turn CR on a similar hand in the future?

Any other adjustments you make when playing against this villain?

labrat · #20 08-01-2006, 02:08 PM

ThePortugee-
nice post, well put.

notevenhere,
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I don't want to sound like an ass or anything, but asking why we should bet when we are ahead is a question that belongs in the beginners forum.

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I really didnt ask this at any stage.

I never said I though we were always ahead on the flop, and although i said we will always be ahead when he folds when in reality he will fold some hands we beat I think if the number of hands he folds when hes ahead is small enough its still worth considering the fact that we dont gain that much by folding out the hands we are ahead of.