Slow Playing

JoaoPinto · #1 01-17-2006, 07:34 AM

Just wondered if anyone has any advice on this. I've recently been burned badly at two crucial periods in a tournament and I wonder if it was bad luck or poor play. Situation 1. Scenario is about mid way through a 1,000 person rebuy tournament I have 25,000 chips twice the average. I hit a broadway straight on the turn, I flat called a bet hoping to extract more on the river (board paired lost to a boat).

Situation 2 was a bit more complicated. Scenario is 5 people left in a 250 person tournament. I have 120,000 in chips 3 others close in stack and one small stake. I had QQ on the button, I had noticed the big blind didn't like people trying to steal, twice before when I raised the minimum from this position he went over the top of me so on this occasion I raised the minimum again hoping to tempt him into doing the same thing. Unfortunately he flat called but... I hit trips on the flop. Once again I slow play knowing this charachter likes to bluff and assumes bluffs when small bets and raises are put to him. He draws to a straight.

So my main question is when is right to slow play, should I slow play trips or straights at all or try to take the pot down there and then when I have them.

dseiler116 · #2 01-17-2006, 08:51 AM

Slow playing requires timing. In scenario one, once you hit that straight you should have fired a big bet and took down the pot right there. You've got very little reason to see the river, but quite obviously your opponent did.

In scenario two, same thing. Once you hit trips, take down the pot. I understand why you would slow play (opponent assumes bluffs, can you tell this by his betting patterns?) but at the final table it's my opinion when you hit a strong/marginal hand (marginal because a lot of hands can crack it, depending on the board) you have to come hard and be overly aggressive because you aren't going to see too many hands like it.

Bernas · #3 01-17-2006, 09:14 AM

Whether you slow play it or not in the first situation you are going to lose chips. They probably aren't going to lay down 2 pair and they definitely wouldn't have laid down a set. When the river pairs the board I would flat call a bet rather then reraising.

The second scenario really depends on the texture of the board. It also depends on what you normally do when you miss a flop. Have you shown down any bluffs recently or do you always bet your strong hands and check fold your weak ones. Is he likely to know this about you?

Slow playing can be very profitable but only when it used very infrequently.

Bernas · #4 01-17-2006, 09:17 AM

I don't think you want to take down the pot right there unless the pot is really big.

Strong/marginal? He has trip Queens. A lot of hands can crack it?

I don't mind playing a big pot with trip Q's. Small hand = Small Pot. Big hand = Big Pot. My way of thinking anyways.

winky51 · #5 01-17-2006, 09:18 AM

At the final table players are more likely to call you down with something because it is not as likely you have a big hand.

Also dont 2x your bet trying to get sneaky with a hand. 2x means "I got a BIG hand" in my eyes and its basically revealing your hand. Weak players won't notice usually but good players will and take advantage of that.

When slowplaying try to figure out your opponents hand. Thats makes it easier to slowplay.

EXAMPLE: live tournament I rase UTG with KK, BB cold calls.

Flop comes Kc 7h 8h.

BB bets into me. I know BB is pretty tight and he knows I am tight. So my range of hands for him are minor. Either he has a pair like QQ-77 or AK maybe. In this case I slowplayed the hand and did a little acting. But look at how dangerous that flop looked. Only because I could narrow down BB's hand can I slowplay trips here. If 1-2 loose players came in I wouldnt slowplay. I can't put them on a hand as well and they will pay me off.

I don't like to slowplay unless I know their hands or I have the nut flush. Nut straights can be craked since it is easy for someone to have 2 pair. JT on a AKQ board, dont slowplay. KQ on a AJT board dont slowplay. Someone has a piece of it.

JoaoPinto · #6 01-17-2006, 10:44 AM

The second scenario really depends on the texture of the board. It also depends on what you normally do when you miss a flop. Have you shown down any bluffs recently or do you always bet your strong hands and check fold your weak ones. Is he likely to know this about you?

The board was Q93 rainbow. He would have me down as a bluffer because twice after I raised his blind I folded to a big re raise. I felt he hand a hand this time because he called my small raise as opposed to re raising as he'd done before. I was hoping to tempt him into a bluff by representing no Q on the flop. A King came on the turn and he went all in, I assumed AK.

Given that I now know he hand an OES draw on the flop if I'd bet the flop he might have raised me remembering that I'd folded before. At that point he may have called an all in anyway as he'd have been down to 50,000 in chips with about 100,000 in the pot.

I don't like to slowplay unless I know their hands or I have the nut flush. Nut straights can be craked since it is easy for someone to have 2 pair. JT on a AKQ board, dont slowplay. KQ on a AJT board dont slowplay. Someone has a piece of it.

I think I realise this now that slow playing a broadway straight can leave you in trouble with high cards out.

Also dont 2x your bet trying to get sneaky with a hand. 2x means "I got a BIG hand" in my eyes and its basically revealing your hand. Weak players won't notice usually but good players will and take advantage of that.

The main reason I did this is because twice before he'd come over the top of me to a 2x raise. I was hoping for the same move. As it happened I think he called because with JT he wanted to see a board.

I don't like to slowplay unless I know their hands or I have the nut flush. Nut straights can be craked since it is easy for someone to have 2 pair. JT on a AKQ board, dont slowplay. KQ on a AJT board dont slowplay. Someone has a piece of it

After his flat call I had no idea what he has. I raised 2x the blind so if he raises he might be playing defensive against a steal, if he calls he might be slow playing or working with a JT like hand. So therefore my 2x raise gained me no information which is probably where I went wrong.

Art Vandelay · #7 01-17-2006, 11:54 AM

[ QUOTE ]
In scenario two, same thing. Once you hit trips, take down the pot. I understand why you would slow play (opponent assumes bluffs, can you tell this by his betting patterns?) but at the final table it's my opinion when you hit a strong/marginal hand (marginal because a lot of hands can crack it, depending on the board) you have to come hard and be overly aggressive because you aren't going to see too many hands like it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Trips Qs heads up against the BB isn't strong/marginal, it's a damn monster. Whether or not I slowplay there depends a lot on the texture of the flop. If your flop is Q72r, slowplay away, there are virtually no scare cards for you. If the flop is Q9T or 3 of a suit, I'm betting then becuase there are a lot of bad cards that can come off on the turn.

To OP, in the first hand you are going to lose a lot of chips no matter what you do. If opponent has 2 pair/set it's highly unlikely they are going to fold. Still, giving a free card that beats you is criminal so I like a bet there even though in this particular case there was nothing you could really do.

dseiler116 · #8 01-17-2006, 02:01 PM

[ QUOTE ]
but at the final table it's my opinion when you hit a strong/marginal hand

[/ QUOTE ]

ANY hand can be considered strong/marginal depending on the board ("the texture of the flop"), as you said yourself.

Maybe deceptive is a better word?

jedi · #9 01-17-2006, 03:22 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I don't like to slowplay unless I know their hands or I have the nut flush. Nut straights can be craked since it is easy for someone to have 2 pair. JT on a AKQ board, dont slowplay. KQ on a AJT board dont slowplay. Someone has a piece of it.

I think I realise this now that slow playing a broadway straight can leave you in trouble with high cards out.

[/ QUOTE ]

It's not just the leaving you in trouble part. When the river comes, if the opponent was drawing, he's either made his hand or missed it. Against good opponents, it'll be tough to extract THAT many more chips if he missed his hand, but has a decent hand. Good opponents won't be calling all-in bets here if the chip stacks are deep. Against bad opponents, they'll call, but they'll call on the turn as well. Get value out of the hand while you can. Slowplaying at the wrong times not only leaves you vulnerable to getting beat, but also reduces the value you can get from your strong hand.