NLHE:TAP "Concepts" Discussion Post (somewhat long)

[Pokamon4e]

Okay, I'll ask: I have read some arguments in favor of min-raising in NLHTAP. So, why will it make people lick their chops, and why is that bad?

[CasinoR7]

Most of the time it's not good to minraise. Some players who actually belong to a limit table, constantly minraise. That is bad, because in NL you can change the bet size to your advantage. With a minraise you are giving cheap cards to people with drawing hands.

[Pokamon4e]

[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time it's not good to minraise. Some players who actually belong to a limit table, constantly minraise. That is bad, because in NL you can change the bet size to your advantage. With a minraise you are giving cheap cards to people with drawing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I still think the OP's question is perfectly reasonable, as Sklansky and Miller advocate min-raising with "big-pot hands" to raise the stakes.

No reason to laugh at him at all (I know you didn't).

[godofPOPOV]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time it's not good to minraise. Some players who actually belong to a limit table, constantly minraise. That is bad, because in NL you can change the bet size to your advantage. With a minraise you are giving cheap cards to people with drawing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I still think the OP's question is perfectly reasonable, as Sklansky and Miller advocate min-raising with "big-pot hands" to raise the stakes.

No reason to laugh at him at all (I know you didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]


thanks, im glad someone finally understood where i was coming from.


minraise PF in a not-quite multiway pot with hands that either make big hands or none at all. raise the stakesand make a big pot in hopes of hitting your set when it isnt quite multiway, etc.


plus you might just be able to pick up the pot with a c-bet if you miss, etc.

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time it's not good to minraise. Some players who actually belong to a limit table, constantly minraise. That is bad, because in NL you can change the bet size to your advantage. With a minraise you are giving cheap cards to people with drawing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I still think the OP's question is perfectly reasonable, as Sklansky and Miller advocate min-raising with "big-pot hands" to raise the stakes.

No reason to laugh at him at all (I know you didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just show me where they talk favorably about:
Being first to enter the pot pre-flop, and for a min raise (25/50 blinds, and you make it 100). Or, a few limpers have entered the pot, pre-flop, and you min raise then. I'll obviously stand corrected. I just doubt that they would talk favorably about this situation since if you want to "build the pot" as the OP suggests, you would obviously raise it more. And, by min-raising, you're getting no information from your opponents since anyone with half a brain will call a min raise to bust you since you're making it cheap for them.
I laughed at OP, but I'm okay with being wrong about this since I see SO MANY donkies min-raising pre-flop every single day.
Please don't confuse this with min-raising while on the flop, where your opponent has already bet (say the pot) and you make the minimum raise.

[zahi1974]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Most of the time it's not good to minraise. Some players who actually belong to a limit table, constantly minraise. That is bad, because in NL you can change the bet size to your advantage. With a minraise you are giving cheap cards to people with drawing hands.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, but I still think the OP's question is perfectly reasonable, as Sklansky and Miller advocate min-raising with "big-pot hands" to raise the stakes.

No reason to laugh at him at all (I know you didn't).

[/ QUOTE ]

Just show me where they talk favorably about:
Being first to enter the pot pre-flop, and for a min raise (25/50 blinds, and you make it 100). Or, a few limpers have entered the pot, pre-flop, and you min raise then. I'll obviously stand corrected. I just doubt that they would talk favorably about this situation since if you want to "build the pot" as the OP suggests, you would obviously raise it more. And, by min-raising, you're getting no information from your opponents since anyone with half a brain will call a min raise to bust you since you're making it cheap for them.
I laughed at OP, but I'm okay with being wrong about this since I see SO MANY donkies min-raising pre-flop every single day.
Please don't confuse this with min-raising while on the flop, where your opponent has already bet (say the pot) and you make the minimum raise.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, I think he is talking about concept 29 (p. 267 in nlhtap), where sklansky/miller are saying: "It's ok to make small raises (2-3x the big blind) to build the pot or to set up future plays" As an example S/M present someone who hast ATs in early position. And I have to say, that it seems pretty reasonable for me to do this in some spots to bring variaton to your game.

BTW.: In particular preflop-raising is an often discussed topic. Some say you shouldn't vary the amount of it anytime, some say you should vary it, dependent what your position is and some (eg. S/M) say you have to vary it according to your holding and the intentions what you want to archieve with it, but you have to be also deceptive. So it seems to me, that the only thing which is widely accepted without contradiciton is, that the preflop-raise has to be the bigger the more players have entered the pot... [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

greetings!

[Pokamon4e]

Read concepts No. 24 (page 262) and No. 29 )starting on page 267).

Apart from that I can hardly see a reason to ever laugh at somebody seriously asking a question in a forum.

[jackaaron]

[ QUOTE ]
Read concepts No. 24 (page 262) and No. 29 )starting on page 267).

Apart from that I can hardly see a reason to ever laugh at somebody seriously asking a question in a forum.

[/ QUOTE ]

I would love if that's all someone has ever done to me on this forum...lol.

Get over it. Just because I lmao to his min-raising pre-flop suggestion doesn't mean I wouldn't be open to ever doing it. I just think it's silly is all. If you're going to raise to build the pot, you might as well make it more than 2xbb (at least 2.5xbb, and yes, the .5 adds up), or if you're going to raise and hope you gain information by your opponents calling, you should certainly raise more than 2xbb (you're getting called with a wide range, so you gain no real information).
He mentioned building the pot for when you hit. Why not make it 2.5-4xbb? 2xbb raises pre-flop just seem senseless in no limit. This isn't new.

[godofPOPOV]

read THE POKER TOURNAMENT FORMULA from Full Tilt and Chris Ferguson suggests even min raising from EP.

with the theory behind it that if you raise from EP you dont have to raise as much because people should interpret you have strength if you are raising with that many people left to act.

also you can min raise to change up your raise sizes.
maybe you min raise to get action with AA or KK or QQ when your on the button and only a couple people are left to act.

maybe you dont want hands to fold but you want a bigger pot.

maybe your changing up your play


i think there are many valid reasons for min raising.
and 2.5xBB is hardly anything but a min raise, so advocating that and thinking 2xBB is foolish is ridiculous.


so laugh away at it but there are many valid reasons for raising 2xBB.

(FYI)

[Pokamon4e]

[ QUOTE ]
I would love if that's all someone has ever done to me on this forum...lol.

[/ QUOTE ]

That's why I rarely write in this forum. But I think I'm over it now. [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
I just think it's silly is all. If you're going to raise to build the pot, you might as well make it more than 2xbb (at least 2.5xbb, and yes, the .5 adds up), or if you're going to raise and hope you gain information by your opponents calling, you should certainly raise more than 2xbb (you're getting called with a wide range, so you gain no real information).
He mentioned building the pot for when you hit. Why not make it 2.5-4xbb? 2xbb raises pre-flop just seem senseless in no limit. This isn't new.

[/ QUOTE ]

To finally contribute something to the topic: I don't usually min-raise either, but I play short-handed most of the time. Sometimes I like to min-raise on heads-up tables for deception purposes, but that's about all.

Personally I think that a 3bb raise sweetens the pot, too. But in addition to that you get more fold equity preflop and a bigger pot to take down with a c-bet.