if it helps, i also have an overcard...

[tyler_cracker]

i think this spot is close. a two-card flush draw is a strong hand as flush-over-flush is somewhat rare. however, it's hard to imagine a lot of hands that have hit this flop that haven't hit it hard. one of the aggressors probably has a hand like A7 or 88, but are all of them going nuts with 1-pair hands? i'm not sure if these villains are loose enough to have two pair, as they would have had to limp 74/72/42. if someone has a bigger flush draw, i'm drawing nearly dead. if someone has a set, that cuts into my equity significantly[**].

despite all the negatives, the pot is getting big and many things are uncertain, so i chose to call. further action in my next post, but i'm interested in further discussion about the flop decision.











[**] just to get an idea, compare:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3850368
pokenum -h 9c 6c - 4d 4s - ad 7d - tc ts -- 7c 4h 2c
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9c 6c 201 24.51 619 75.49 0 0.00 0.245
4s 4d 526 64.15 294 35.85 0 0.00 0.641
Ad 7d 16 1.95 804 98.05 0 0.00 0.020
Ts Tc 77 9.39 743 90.61 0 0.00 0.094

with the same situation where the set becomes a big overpair:

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=3850381
pokenum -h 9c 6c - kd ks - ad 7d - tc ts -- 7c 4h 2c
Holdem Hi: 820 enumerated boards containing 7c 2c 4h
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
9c 6c 285 34.76 535 65.24 0 0.00 0.348
Ks Kd 336 40.98 484 59.02 0 0.00 0.410
Ad 7d 116 14.15 704 85.85 0 0.00 0.141
Ts Tc 83 10.12 737 89.88 0 0.00 0.101

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
table is sort of loose with a couple passive spots but most villains are pretty aggressive, especially postflop.

some limpers to me, i complete with 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], bb checks.

6 ways to the flop for 6 sb.
7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

i check, bb checks, someone bets, someone else raises, button 3bets, hero...?

[/ QUOTE ]

...calls, bb folds, both bettors calls.


4 players, 9 bb
T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

hero checks, bettors check, button bets, hero calls, both guys call.


3 players, 13 bb
5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

hero...?

[tyler_cracker]

[ QUOTE ]
Why are you not betting the flop?

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
most villains are pretty aggressive, especially postflop.

[/ QUOTE ]

i'm not worried about this checking through. since i am oop, b/3b is less attractive since when i miss i have to check the turn. c/r is fun.

[bozlax]

...bets. LDO.

[Brain]

flop stoving - Is it likely that a big pair gets limped PF?

river - bet/call 1, fold for two more? I feel semi-bad about folding there since we think they're aggro, but probably not morans, but I'm not sure.

[ckj]

Why do we not cap the flop? 4 Players and we have a flush draw. Seems like a simple equity play to me. Are we genuinely afraid of a flush over flush scenario? The only other way we wouldn't have equity is when someone has a set, but is that common enough that it's an issue?

I probably call it as I play it, but could capping be correct? I know it would certainly be correct if we were OTB, but it doesn't sound so bad here.

River is a pretty standard c/r imo.

[Harv72b]

I got into this thread late, but FWIW my intial reaction to the OP was that this was a question of cap or call three on the flop. I was shocked to see so many people seriously considering a fold. This ain't Omaha, folks--any flush draw is worth continuing with, and if you end up in a flush over flush situation, so be it. Plus, you always have your runner runner straight flush to fall back on.

Also, keep in mind that with a flop like this, there are other strong draws which could be betting/raising the flop besides a flush draw--65 & 53 just flopped an open-ender, for example. As tyler mentioned in the followup post, a hand like A7 is also very possible given our reads, as are small sets or even small overpairs.

To answer the initial question, if the action was bet-raise-3bet, with no callers anywhere, I tend towards calling 3. If there has already been a caller/coldcaller, I like capping a bit more...basically, the more people who've committed chips to the pot after the flop, the more I like capping.

I bet/call the river. Our flop play pretty much announced our hand, so we can't count on anyone betting the river for us. And for the same reason, I hesitate to bet/3bet with our small flush.

[MoonOrb]

Call. Throw up if a club comes but the board pairs.

If you cap the flop you might drive out the initial bettor and maybe someone else, the action isn't that clear. So I think we get a better chance to get more along for the ride if we just call. We're in an awkward situation on the turn if we cap. We check any non-club and practically announce our draw. So if the club hits on the river we might not collect a whole lot.

And bet the river. And I sure hope no one is sitting there with a higher flush.

[neurotiq]

I'd donk this river. People check through way too often when the third flush card falls. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

[B2_eBoogaloo]

river is bet/call...folding anywhere in this hand makes me cry.