pokerev, winning pots without showdown [theory]

[mvdgaag]

traz... seems like you give up a lot a little too many small pots. I get my profit from the small pots and lose a little on the showdown winnings... It's a matter of style I guess.
Have you guys checked the analisys tab with the graph options on cumulative?

[alexoi]

[ QUOTE ]
you run insanely bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Actually the last months have been the toughest of my poker "career". It started good but suddenly I wasn't able to win a single pot, either I got outdrawn (most of the time) or I got a setup like set vs set and stuff.

But still I wanna take response for my losings and try to find leaks in my game as hard as I can.

Is my graph ok for a 20/16 style, cause my green line seems to be a little bit too low, so I'm not aggressive enough, right ?

I added three more graphs to discuss:

Pots of 0-20 BB:


Pots of 20-40 BB:


Pots of 40-100 BB:


This seems that I am too tight in the small -20BB or the big 40-100BB Pots, is this right ?

[carnivalhobo]

I've been playing with this a bit, and the graphs filtered for position are interesting.

[Brian]

I'll go ahead and throw my graphs into the ring/pool here in hopes that someone smarter than I can start to piece together exactly how all of this pertains to different limits and styles, etc. Though it does look like dave, Eagle, etc. are already well on their way to deciphering all the ins and outs.

I've been grinding out limit for the past 4 years, and just switched to NL in August, so I don't have quite as large of a hand history database as I would like: 60k hands for August, 20k hands for September.

August 2007:




The 7 Levels are made up of 200NL, 200NL-6max, and 400NL-6max.

First 32k hands are at 200NL ring; graph makes total sense as I wasn't that great during this time (still learning a lot every day!) :P

Last 30k hands are the 6max.

September 2007:




All these hands are at 400NL-6max.

Since I'm running poorly so far in September (and that's how I discovered PokerEV - obv!), I'd def like to hear someone like Dire give their opinons. Give it to me rough and raw, I loved Louis Vuitton's analysis in Ship Ship Mcgipp's thread:

[ QUOTE ]
OP, u run ok/good. u just suck postflop

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL.

With 27/20/6 stats, I fear being called a LAGfish. However, my average players per table is 4.65, and my stats are actually 22/18 when filtered for 6 player games.

Brian

[Jay Riall]

I've read through this whole thread and taken absolutely nothing from it. This graphing crap is in no way helpful in improving your game. Just post and think about hands more, don't try and win too many small pots or whatever because someone said your graph probably means you are too weak in small pots.

All this is is a small comfort to people who are running badly in all-in hands. Also, may negatively effect them because they will be blaming 'running bad' rather than actually playing bad.

I've just ran at like 2ptbb/100 over 25k hands at 200NL. My graph says I ran under expectation over this peroid, but I know I played real crappy in a few hands, so I'm concentrating on this, not on how badly I ran on coinflips or whatever.

[ReptileHouse]

Whether this is useful or not depends entirely on how it's used. Jay is right that if you only take it as far as something like, "I don't play small pots well," or, "I spew in big pots," then you're not going to get much from it. However, those are still useful pieces of information.

Analyzing and posting hands and talking through them is absolutely key to improving. Knowing which hands to look at, though, is not always obvious. This kind of analysis can help in narrowing down the possibilities. It's a starting point. You can use this stuff to see how to filter hands in PT and from there pick out examples to post.

[Brian]

[ QUOTE ]
All this is is a small comfort to people who are running badly in all-in hands. Also, may negatively effect them because they will be blaming 'running bad' rather than actually playing bad.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree - IF you're just using the "Luck Graphs". But there seems to be an awful lot one can take away from the "Game Analysis Graphs", specifically that little green line [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img], despite the fact that the developer of the software said that that tab can be misleading/not entirely accurate.

Brian

[EDIT]:

Just a little theory regarding the whole "green line so high OMG have my babies u r superpro god", at least how it pertains to my graph:

In my full ring games, my green line was always above the blue/red, meaning I was making most of my money without showing my hand down. This makes sense in a full ring game, where people aren't taking lots of hands to showdown, and you generally get more credit/a higher level of "trust".

However, in my 6max games, my green line is always below my blue/red lines, meaning I was making most of my money getting all in with the best of it/showing down the best hand. This makes sense in a 6max (or shorter) handed game, where people show down a lot more hands and generally give a lot less credit/lower level of "trust".

I was assuming that carrotsnake/kotkis/Fabian were playing 6max (since thats where all the cool kids play [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]), can anyone confirm whether they were at ring or 6max?

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read through this whole thread and taken absolutely nothing from it. This graphing crap is in no way helpful in improving your game. Just post and think about hands more, don't try and win too many small pots or whatever because someone said your graph probably means you are too weak in small pots.

All this is is a small comfort to people who are running badly in all-in hands. Also, may negatively effect them because they will be blaming 'running bad' rather than actually playing bad.

I've just ran at like 2ptbb/100 over 25k hands at 200NL. My graph says I ran under expectation over this peroid, but I know I played real crappy in a few hands, so I'm concentrating on this, not on how badly I ran on coinflips or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think with all the filters in this there is great opportunity to find the specific situations where you could improve your game. Especially in balance between agression and pot control; take the small pots win the big ones.

If your total winnings are lower than your showdown winnings for example, you are probably missing a lot of value from stealing blinds, cbetting and stabbing at small uncontested pots.
If your showdown winnings are negative, you probably are agressive enough to take more than your share of small pots, but don't surrender quickly enough on later streets where a steal failed or you have a marginal holding.

This is only very general, but I think with the filters you can get quite specific and improving an overall balanced strategy.

[Jay Riall]

Someone get jfish or another MSNL HU player to plug his grpah into this, I imagine it could be pretty sick.

[NL Newbie]

[ QUOTE ]
I've read through this whole thread and taken absolutely nothing from it. This graphing crap is in no way helpful in improving your game. Just post and think about hands more, don't try and win too many small pots or whatever because someone said your graph probably means you are too weak in small pots.

All this is is a small comfort to people who are running badly in all-in hands. Also, may negatively effect them because they will be blaming 'running bad' rather than actually playing bad.

I've just ran at like 2ptbb/100 over 25k hands at 200NL. My graph says I ran under expectation over this peroid, but I know I played real crappy in a few hands, so I'm concentrating on this, not on how badly I ran on coinflips or whatever.

[/ QUOTE ]

True.

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