Asking LAGs for help....

[ElectricWaffles]

Devil's advocate again...

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the suitedness of a hand only adds 2-4% to their final win percentage at showdown. This point may be retarded however... does that not give an arguement for playing unsuited connectors in the same way? A poster above said that you're about 10% or thereabouts to flop a flush draw, so most of the time there isn't going to be much of a difference between the strength of your connectors post flop, suited or not.

So what i'm getting at is if you play the unsuited ones too, you've got lots more opportunities to pick up small uncontested pots, thus making up for the lack of suitedness (Thats not very lucid i'm sorry lol, but you see what i'm getting at right?)

It may add to your laggish image too because you're playing more hands, thus you'll get payed off better with your monsters.

Just trying to work this through...

[Mike Kelley]

2% matters IMO. I'm not playing a OESD as strong as I'm playing an OESD w/FD My suited connectors are winning me money in poker tracker, my unsuited connectors are losing me money.

[Peleus]

I think my definition of TAG might be a bit different to others, so my opinion the larger factor of a TAG rather then a LAG is the starting hand requirements (as well as obviously aggression).

For instance someone playing 99+, JTs+, AQo+ is playing roughly 10%, thats TAGish.

Once you start adding in a lot more cards such as SC's you start getting a bit LAGish By my definition at least

Not saying thats the typical classification.

Regardless of the fact, do you find that its more profitable if you are playing SC's to be aggressive preflop at the risk of bleeding more when you don't hit or being passive and speed up once you hit you're draw.

I'm trying to figure out how Doyle can do what he does, without bleeding horrendously.

[Mike Kelley]

Read this.


http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/sh...age=0&vc=1

[mvdgaag]

Note that in a game where your opponents will float a lot or test you a lot it will be hard to steal and we are better off playing to make a hand instead of playing to steal. SuperSystem's strategy doesn't work well in these games. Luckily these games allow more value from our big hands so we should play for big pots.

If you find your opponents play a fit/fold game on the flop it's very profitable to raise any hand and cbet to steal, since they'll miss most of the time... Of course if we raise every hand our opponents would catch up quickly and destroy us after the flop. So we have to make a selection of hands that allow us to steal more than with our normal tight range, but still make it hard for our opponents post flop, because they should fear we have a hand that will break them at all time.

If you have to choose from all the hands you don't already raise and cbet for value, then SC's, small pairs and suited aces are the best candidates, since they make big hands and are easy to release if they don't hit.

All in all:

- Opponents give up easilly: go for small pots, raise more preflop, steal more...
- Opponents do not believe you and like to stick around postflop: go for big pots, raise/play less hands preflop and get maximum value out of them when you do.

[diebitter]

(previously posted in the limit->NL forum)

mkay, a solid LAG game is the way to get the most solid winrate per 100 hands. It's not necessarily the best way to earn the highest amount of money per hour, because it typically necessitates actually watching the table, getting reads/patterns/tells on other players, and exploiting the hell out of their tendencies. Solid TAG strategies+ playing as many tables as you can handle may earn you better overall. Lag play is also the fastest way to eat away your BR too, so be aware and beware.

On the downside, playing a ton of tables at once might be okay for you to really get standard plays and situations embedded in your skull, but it will retard your progress to becoming a really good player.


So what's a solid LAG game? Typically, your LAG will have a high VPIP, much higher than 18 say. (I personally run at around 28-32 - with peaks of 80-70 on really nitty tables where I can exploit the hell out of timid TAGS - when playing my full LAG game, but this is probably considered more super-lag), but one thing that differentiates the good Lags from the maniacs is that THEY ARE ONLY LOOSE WHEN THE BETS ARE SMALL. If you want to figure out if a Lag is good or bad, watch him postflop. He'll often be aggressive postflop on any kind of board except maybe a very coordinated one (like monotones), but will simply fold to heat. This really pisses Tags off, who have been waiting patiently for their shot back. If you see a Lag make a mistake and stack off once, that doesn't necessarily mean he's bad, BTW. If he repeats, he's then most likely not a good Lag, make a note and remember what mistakes he makes.

Good LAGs are pretty good at postflop play. They will be watching people, and know the people to fold to, the people to push off, and the people to pot-control. (Lags will bet out often to stop bigger bets, and I'm not talking the piddly little minbets you;ll often see).

Lags are also comfortable extracting money a bit at a time from tight games, and will have a well-developed smallball game. Often the TAGs multitable and try and take big lumps out of each other, while Lags pick up the crumbs which the Tags won't fight over (those multitablers just haven't got the time to micromanage each game at the level required for decent smallball play).

So preflop, Lags will be either calling or raising with a much wider range than usual. Typically, it's going to be connected hands in some way, so probably in order of likelihood for a good LAG: big pairs, big cards (AJ+, KQs), pairs, suited connectors, suited one gappers, Axs. Some rate the Axs higher, and some hate playing KQ/KJ, and prefer hands much less likely to be dominated. To call a raiser, they usually read the raiser's tendencies, his stack size, and the way the board has been playing. Your good Lag more likely to call a raiser if:

- his relative stack is big (ie both the raiser and the Lag have deepish stacks)
- There are other callers in who are likely to come along even with a raise (and sometimes the raiser might be small-stacked, but these others might be deep enough to keep the Lag interested)
- His position is good (how important this is is quite player-centric. Some care a lot, some don't care at all as often they're looking to flop well)
- Favourable conditions of who might be coming behind/number of callers behind (A Lag may call an UTG from the button, but fold the same hand if in UTG+1)
- When the raiser is more likely to be stacked (If a really solid TAG player raises you, you very often just fold, as they're too difficult to extract from)

Notice the last point is very read-dependent. You really need to have watched a player to know this for sure.


Some Lags are aggressive preflop, some are passive. I mix it up personally, but passive is only okay if you're pretty happy with your postflop game. If unsure, aggressive is better, so if you aren't sure, it's best to always open with a raise.

[mvdgaag]

[ QUOTE ]
Devil's advocate again...

I seem to remember reading somewhere that the suitedness of a hand only adds 2-4% to their final win percentage at showdown. This point may be retarded however... does that not give an arguement for playing unsuited connectors in the same way? A poster above said that you're about 10% or thereabouts to flop a flush draw, so most of the time there isn't going to be much of a difference between the strength of your connectors post flop, suited or not.

So what i'm getting at is if you play the unsuited ones too, you've got lots more opportunities to pick up small uncontested pots, thus making up for the lack of suitedness (Thats not very lucid i'm sorry lol, but you see what i'm getting at right?)

It may add to your laggish image too because you're playing more hands, thus you'll get payed off better with your monsters.

Just trying to work this through...

[/ QUOTE ]

It makes a huge difference and it is 6.4% chance to win if there are no removed flushcards:

(11C3 * 39C2 + 11C4 * 39C1 + 11C5) / 50C5 = 6.4%

Of course there are some suited cards in your opponents range as well and your opponent beats a flush sometimes... In pokerstove with realistic ranges, the difference in equity is often 3-5%.

If you consider that offsuit connectors often only have 30% equity and suited connectors have about 35%, you'll see that it's not 5%, but a (35/30-1 =) 17% increase in equity. Which is a better way to look at it IMO.

If we look at how we play the hands the difference matters even more, since offsuit connectors make playable draws/made hands about 15% of the time, while suited connectors do so about 25% of the time... This is a (25/15-1 =) 67% relative increase in flops we can continue on even if the steal fails...

Of course if you want to play mega loose you are probably better off adding weak offsuit connectors before you add trash like J2o. But to play this loose you have to be either Sammy Farha or just want to lose.

[Kos13]

[ QUOTE ]
Lags just call preflop and then get aggressive when they hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, what? This is not true at all.

One thing I need to work on is my play against good LAGs, so what I want to know from the good 2+2 LAGs is...how often are you double/triple barreling into TAGs? sLAGs? Fish? Unknowns? On what types of boards do you like double/triple barreling with air?

[five4suited]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Lags just call preflop and then get aggressive when they hit.

[/ QUOTE ]

Um, what? This is not true at all.

One thing I need to work on is my play against good LAGs, so what I want to know from the good 2+2 LAGs is...how often are you double/triple barreling into TAGs? sLAGs? Fish? Unknowns? On what types of boards do you like double/triple barreling with air?

[/ QUOTE ]

Diebitter, there's waaay too much info in your post [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

It's going to be lag-dependent, and they'll bet into the above archetypes based (mostly) on the likelihood that they'll fold... I look at their turn and river bets based on what percentage of the pot they're betting and their position.

[GrandMelon]

Im not really a LAG but I usually play SCs when its folded around to me in LP and I make a standard preflop raise. Against weak-tight TAGs Ill call with them and bomb most low flops and put them to tough decisions with their overpairs.