Angle Shooting A$$H0&# @ Red Rock

[spyu]

For those that know me I'm a regular at the Venetian, and occasionally play at Bellagio, Wynn, or Caesar's to break the monotany.
Me and my wife decided to go play at Red Rock today on a whim. It's a bit closer to where we live than the strip so we go there every once in a great while.
We sit in the 2-5 game. There're 3 games going when we show up and my game breaks so I merge to her table. I guess they got rid of the 3-5 game and upped the cap in the 2-5 game which I think makes a lot more sense. Anyways there's an older gentlemen sitting next to her who seems pretty friendly and is chatting her up about this and that.

Then he's in a hand w/ her where the flop is 10 10 8. It's checked around and she checks on the button. The dealer burns and turns a King. Then he starts saying something about how she didn't check the flop as he bets $30. She calls and he says, "Great now I'm screwed" River is another King. He checks and she bets $50 and he calls showing 10x and she flips over KJ. Got what you deserved buddy.

Then he's in a hand w/ me. Flop: 2 3 10 I have 56. Checked around Turn is a 4. I bet $10. He raises to $25(I made a small bet like this in 4 hands ago where he raised w/ nothing and I mucked because I had nothing). I call,
River is 5. I check, he bets $20 I raise to $150. And he says, "I guess I call for a chop." As he shows me his A9o. So I flip my cards over and he mucks his hand. The dealer motions for him to put his money forward and he says, "I didn't call, I said I guess I can't call for a chop." This is B.S., but I don't make a big fuss about it and say that it's fine.

Next hand sweet justice: I limp w/ K3 clubs. Flop: 3 4 clubs 5 clubs
checked to me, I bet $20. He calls. Turn blank. He checks I bet $25 he CR's to $75 I call. River 8 clubs. He goes all-in i.e. he has absolutely nothing. If he had a set, two pair, a straight or anything of value he would either value bet the river or check call being afraid of the flush. I could've stooped to his level and slow rolled him after asking to see his hand, but just said I had a flush because I knew he had nothing anyways. But people like this amaze me. I hope I see that guy again though because it filled me w/ great pleasure to stack him. I don't go to Red Rock too often and he seemed to be a regular there. All I have to say is justice was served and too bad he didn't have more in front of him.

[*TT*]

What you consider an angle shoot, i consider good psychology. Sure its a but rude, but poker was never a "nice game" historically - people expect that only post televised poker.

Situation 1 - nothing wrong with that... sounds like an attempt by the opponent to encourage a call; he got what he wanted, and your wife won. Whats the problem? It was a pretty blatant attempt on his part, she knew what she was getting into.

Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

Situation 3 - Sounds like your steaming. You made this personal, although you won the only one your embarrassing yourself is yourself. Think about it... why are you complaining about a guy who tried to bluff you out of the pot and gave you his entire stack? I would be praising him on the forums if I were you, rather than complaining about him - your in the wrong place psychologically.

[jack frost]

sounds like a jerk to me glad you stacked him!

[oddjob]

[ QUOTE ]
What you consider an angle shoot, i consider good psychology. Sure its a but rude, but poker was never a "nice game" historically - people expect that only post televised poker.

Situation 1 - nothing wrong with that... sounds like an attempt by the opponent to encourage a call; he got what he wanted, and your wife won. Whats the problem? It was a pretty blatant attempt on his part, she knew what she was getting into.

Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

Situation 3 - Sounds like your steaming. You made this personal, although you won the only one your embarrassing yourself is yourself. Think about it... why are you complaining about a guy who tried to bluff you out of the pot and gave you his entire stack? I would be praising him on the forums if I were you, rather than complaining about him - your in the wrong place psychologically.

[/ QUOTE ]

well said. most of you don't realize that these jerks are the ones that feed the game.

[psandman]

[ QUOTE ]
What you consider an angle shoot, i consider good psychology. Sure its a but rude, but poker was never a "nice game" historically - people expect that only post televised poker.

Situation 1 - nothing wrong with that... sounds like an attempt by the opponent to encourage a call; he got what he wanted, and your wife won. Whats the problem? It was a pretty blatant attempt on his part, she knew what she was getting into.


[/ QUOTE ]

I thought the angle was his claim that she hadn't checked as an attempt to get a new turn card . . . though I don't know why he would have been concerned about that turn card. Its not an angle that he said "now I'm screwed". Its an angle that he claimed thhat she hadn't checked.

[ QUOTE ]
Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't really undrestand this blame the victim mentality. he rule is that verbal action is binding. Both the player and thealer heard this guy announce that he was calling. That was a call. Claiming now that he said he didn't call is a cheating. While maybe the player could have protected himself by waiting for the money to get move dinto the pot that still isn't protection. Lets say he refuses to flip up his cards until the money goes into the pot, now the cheater gets the opportunity to see how the player reacted to his verbal announcement of a call and then uncall if he doesn't like the response. In fact refusing to turn over his cards untikl the money went in would probably be a good indication that he didn't anticipate a chop.

[3rdCheckRaise]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really??? Verbal action is binding, don't you know that? If you do know it then blaming the victim of this angle play is pretty low...well nothing new there...but for you to come out and say that it is "good psychology"...well done sir!!!!!

[Russ M.]

I think what all these threads about angle shooters and what-not prove is that when you are playing B&M you REALLY need to ensure that people are actually doing what you think they are doing when they say things like "I call for a chop" and what-not. I hope I have enough wits about me that when something like this happens to me, I ask the dealer if that is a call before I do anything.

FWIW, I don't really see a problem with Hand 1, just mindless table chat. Him playing it like a tard is what lost it for him.

Hand 2, as was said by TT and others, is just really a n00b mistake. It's conceivable that the guy DID say "I *can't* call for a chop" and OP misheard or heard what he wanted to hear (or OP's mind is recalling what it wants to recall), but in ambiguous situations, you should always try and confirm the action before you do anything.

Hand 3 is nothing. You busto'ed him, yay.

[*TT*]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really??? Verbal action is binding, don't you know that? If you do know it then blaming the victim of this angle play is pretty low...well nothing new there...but for you to come out and say that it is "good psychology"...well done sir!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

Verbal action is binding of course, but then it becomes a challenge to make it stick. The old saying is fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice - shame on me. If the OP was concerned that the opponent is a known angle shooter then it was absolutely his mistake. I'll never forget the first time this ever happened to me, I was playing in a 1/2 NL game with Nolle Francisco (WPT 2x winner if I recall correctly, 1/2 was the biggest game NL he could get in NYC at the time back in the day). I value bet the river, he paused for a minute and said "I think I am going to have to call you". I turned over my hand excited that I was positive I had just won and extracted the maximum value on the river, but I was shocked to see that the call wasn't perceived by the floor. I heard it, another guy at the table heard it, but the dealer didn't and therefore it wasn't ruled to be a call. From that point forward I learned that I wait until I am absolutely sure that the opponent called before turning over my hand; usually by pushing chips forward but I will also accept the dealer asking to see the hand. Sure it takes an extra 3 seconds, but I'll never lose a river bet again.

In this situation, the OP made the mistake of rushing. Sure the opponent shot an angle, but its his own mistake for being caught in the angle. PROTECT YOUR HAND.

[DeuceKicker]

[ QUOTE ]
Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.


[/ QUOTE ]What a disappointingly scummy attitude. I've never had the misconception that poker is or ever was a 'gentleman's game,' but what the guy did in situation two is nothing but cheating. It's not BSing during a hand to try to get an opponent to make a mistake, it's breaking the rules.

[pyedog]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Situation 2 - You made the mistake.... wait till he puts his chips in there.

[/ QUOTE ]
Really??? Verbal action is binding, don't you know that? If you do know it then blaming the victim of this angle play is pretty low...well nothing new there...but for you to come out and say that it is "good psychology"...well done sir!!!!!

[/ QUOTE ]

But is what this guy said actually binding? He said: "I guess I call for a chop."

That is a bit different than just saying "I call". For one thing, the more words that were muttered in a sentence, the more likely it is that he was misheard.

If it were me, I would wait for clarification that he meant exactly "I call" before turning over my hand. Then again, if he actually said that then I think it should be binding, but I'm not confident that every floor person would agree.

Is "I guess I call" binding?

Apparently "I think I have to call" is not binding.

"I have to call" is probably binding though, right? I have no idea how they decide this stuff. But I think that a good lesson is to just wait and stare at the other player and ask for clarification until he says specifically "call", "fold" or "raise", with at most the word "I" appended to it.

How about "I call or my name isn't Jack Lemmon." Would this be binding because of the first two words? Or is it only binding if you're not playing Jack Lemmon?