Carol Gotbaum and personal responsibility

[kutuz_off]

For those of you with experience of being handcuffed - how is it possible to strangle self while handcuffed?

[Jamougha]

the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

[mjkidd]

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

[Max Raker]

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I agree with this but she was in police custody and the first definition of 'custody' is care and guardianship meaning I think she should've been watched more closely esp. given her agitated state.

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Or she could have just calmed down, acted like a semi-reasonable adult, and not strangled herself. I don't think that every belligerent drunk is owed 24/7 police supervision when they're in a holding cell, on the off chance they might strangle themselves.

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We'll find out at the end of the lawsuit (if we live long enough). And if she were capable of just calming down she wouldn't have been arrested in the first place. I don't want to be critical of the police here because the woman bears the greater part of the responsibility but if I had to guess I'd say that there will be new procedures in place after this case is reviewed by the department.

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There should already be procedures to put prisoners who pose a danger to themselves under special observation.

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That is the key point I think. I am not sure how everybody is so quick to decide on this one. The police could deserve most of the blame or none.

[mosdef]

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

[mjkidd]

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

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Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

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It is hard to see how the police could have seen that she was suicidal or otherwise mentally ill. On the other hand, her husband knew both (as the wife's attorney indicated by recalling his frantic calls to police, warning them she posed a danger to herself). I cannot see how anyone would think that he is not the responsible party, if we are to engage in this sort of useless assessment of postmortem blame.

[Metric]

I tend to think that depriving a person of their liberty is a serious act, which entails complete responsibility on the part of the person making the arrest. You don't just get to say "that person is acting like a jerk, throw her in the pit," even if you're the government.

[elwoodblues]

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They want to point fingers, they should go find a mirror.

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I, too, blame the mirror.

[jogger08152]

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

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Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

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Your agenda caused you to miss poster's point: the family of the mentally ill individual ought not allow that individual to enter unescorted into situations that could cause the mental illness to come to the fore.

And yes, the government could quite easily write laws that would make this legally mandatory, rather than merely morally mandatory.

[Metric]

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the mentally ill are typically not that hot on personal responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed. If she was so mentally incapacitated that she could not be trusted with her own life, to whom does the responsibility fall? I would say not the police.

[/ QUOTE ]

Really? If the government is going to write laws defining who is mentally ill and granting the police the power to detain them to protect them from themselves and others (which they have) then they must also assume responsibility for the ill while their detained. They can't have it both ways.

The issue in this particular case is that it's not clear if the cops knew she was mentally ill. They detained her for being drunk and violent, and they can't be expected to either perform mental health assessments or read minds. How could they distinguish between her and someone who is just an ass?

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It is hard to see how the police could have seen that she was suicidal or otherwise mentally ill. On the other hand, her husband knew both (as the wife's attorney indicated by recalling his frantic calls to police, warning them she posed a danger to herself). I cannot see how anyone would think that he is not the responsible party, if we are to engage in this sort of useless assessment of postmortem blame.

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I'm sure we can blame the husband for some things. No problem. However, that doesn't absolve the cops -- if you're going to deprive someone of their liberty, you are by definition taking on responsibility for everything that happens to that person.

If this means that it becomes increasingly impractical to detain/arrest people for increasingly minor offenses, like making the wrong kind of joke at the airport, etc., then so be it. Depriving a person of their liberty is a serious act.