AJo OOP--multiple limpers

[icheckraiseu]

Raise 4*bb +1bb per limper. If you are HU thereafter, cbet. If you are 3handed, CBET.

[maSkraP]

as for the main point of this post, i would raise here b/c a hand like AJo is essentially good but also essentially too vulnerable to go up against 3 other peeps. u try and get this HU. if someone reraises, fold while gnashing ur teeth (but make sure to fold!). AJo, KQo, A10o and such hands often make second best hands to showdown. Fold these to reraises preflop (especially if ur OOP).

[mocky]

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With these kind of hands in SB or BB with a couple of limpers i like to make a nice big raise 7,8 or 9x BB basically enough to fold everyone out, which is usually what happens.

[/ QUOTE ] your goal for a preflop raise is to get it HU, not to get everyone to fold... I mean heck, if you have pocket aces, do you want everyone to fold ur raise? NO! it's the same mentality. you want villain to call your raise (extra cash) and then own him with your sexy postflop play.

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Yeah with AA im never making this big a raise from SB or BB but that was not OP's example his example was AJo(which can be a troublesome hand OOP) which i never want to play HU OOP against villan who called my standard size raise.
Basically i like to take this one down PF and move on, as for sexy post flop play you raise this one 4xBB + 1 per limper (standard play in position of course) get two callers flop comes Axx or A10x you bet out get called or raised what do you do now?

[OSUGreg1983]

Why is it so painful for people to find their fold button here?

You're guaranteeing yourself a maximum loss of two pennies by folding. If we raise it up 4BB + 1BB for every limper, we're asking for a classic "one bad call induces 3 others" at 5NL. If we can't get this to heads up, which is so difficult to do, we're a huge underdog to take down the pot postflop OOP.

Only sure way to take this down would be to over-raise like 10-12 BB's, but even then you get passive donkeys who call because its only .55. Players dont think in relative pot size at this limit.

Fold ONE hand, come on you can do it! Silly 6max NL players. If we're playing a 500-1k hand session, I think we can find a better spot and fold one here.

[slush420]

it all depends on the people you're playing. if they raise preflop more than 8% of the time, it's safe to assume they would have raised AQ and AK so why not raise AJ? at $5 limits you can and will get paid off with this hand in the long run. however if they don't raise PF very often at all and you believe they would limp with aq or ak, a fold is fine here.

[mocky]

Folding in this spot is weak/tight IMO nobody has raised for all you know you could have the best hand.
Ive been taking this line since reading this excellent post
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...t=1#Post7827947 and my game has improved remarkably. gl

[djj6835]

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I look at it this way, if you're a great oop post flop player with 2-3 callers, go ahead and raise. (5NL is full of calling stations who don't know how/when to fold, so I dont like this option)



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WTF?

So villains in this hand are terrible and will limp call a raise with much worse with AJ.

They are also stations postflop and will stick around with hands that you crush when you hit the flop.

Conclusion = fold? This doesn't make any sense.

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If you want to play it safe and fold then this should be an acceptable option here. From experience, if you get 2 or 3 callers to a PFR, you will get a c-bet caller on ANY flop about 70% of the time. In other words, if you don't want to find yourself in a potentially marginal situation (especially since we will be OOP), a fold is more than fine.


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So don't c bet. Just put as much money in the pot with the best hand as you can. AJ is way ahead of their range preflop and you will get a bunch of flops in which they will pay you off.

[OSUGreg1983]

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So villains in this hand are terrible and will limp call a raise with much worse with AJ.

They are also stations postflop and will stick around with hands that you crush when you hit the flop.

Conclusion = fold? This doesn't make any sense.

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Let's look at it this way. I don't have PokerStove available right now, but I'll do my best to guess it out.

Say I have AJo, followed by 2 callers if I raise. They have K10o and 78s. We may be, say a 40% favorite to win the hand PF against K10o-30% 78s-30%. This means that although we have the highest proportion to win, 40/100, we are still behind to the combonation of proportions out against us (30+30=60/100) We hit our pair on the flop less than 50% of the time. If we plan on c-betting any flop to take it down, we're going to get a call in many spots because 2 random holdings will hit at least a draw on a random board that we miss. Double barreling is so spewy at 5NL, so most of the time we're facing an OOP situation on the turn after a failed c-bet with one caller that stuck around.

If we're fortunate to hit Jxx then great. But even if we hit Axx we must proceed with caution in light that many villains limp call with AQ+, especially UTG and MP.

I apologize if this is hard to follow, but SO much money is spewed OOP because we look at a hand like AJo preflop, which may in fact be a favorite at the time, but things change drastically on the flop with more than half the deck out against us when its difficult to get it heads up.

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WTF?

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p.s. I don't find this highly necessary in fostering healthy discussions.

[djj6835]

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Let's look at it this way. I don't have PokerStove available right now, but I'll do my best to guess it out.

Say I have AJo, followed by 2 callers if I raise. They have K10o and 78s. We may be, say a 40% favorite to win the hand PF against K10o-30% 78s-30%. This means that although we have the highest proportion to win, 40/100, we are still behind to the combonation of proportions out against us (30+30=60/100) We hit our pair on the flop less than 50% of the time. If we plan on c-betting any flop to take it down, we're going to get a call in many spots because 2 random holdings will hit at least a draw on a random board that we miss. Double barreling is so spewy at 5NL, so most of the time we're facing an OOP situation on the turn after a failed c-bet with one caller that stuck around.

If we're fortunate to hit Jxx then great. But even if we hit Axx we must proceed with caution in light that many villains limp call with AQ+, especially UTG and MP.

I apologize if this is hard to follow, but SO much money is spewed OOP because we look at a hand like AJo preflop, which may in fact be a favorite at the time, but things change drastically on the flop with more than half the deck out against us when its difficult to get it heads up.


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Did you even read all my post? You don't have to c bet every flop multiway.

[Ricky_Bobby]

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Why is it so painful for people to find their fold button here?

You're guaranteeing yourself a maximum loss of two pennies by folding. If we raise it up 4BB + 1BB for every limper, we're asking for a classic "one bad call induces 3 others" at 5NL. If we can't get this to heads up, which is so difficult to do, we're a huge underdog to take down the pot postflop OOP.

Only sure way to take this down would be to over-raise like 10-12 BB's, but even then you get passive donkeys who call because its only .55. Players dont think in relative pot size at this limit.

Fold ONE hand, come on you can do it! Silly 6max NL players. If we're playing a 500-1k hand session, I think we can find a better spot and fold one here.

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Others have said it but it should be reiterated. The purpose of raising preflop is not to make everyone fold. It seems like so many of us micro players think that it should be our goal to get people to fold hands that are worse than ours. Yes it isn't fun if the whole table calls and you whiff, but so what? You don't have to try to push it through all the way to the river just because you raised preflop.

If we are planning on playing a long session then we should be more willing to raise in spots like this because over the long run it is +EV to raise AJ. And we aren't losing just the 2 pennies when we fold. We're losing all the bets we could potentially have won on later streets.

AJo from the sb can be a pain and you don't have to raise it, but if you play decent post flop you probably should.